On another threads various levels of concern were expressed about locking lug strength and the 585/6000, especially if strong brass (Horneber??) allowed for full loads.

It should be fairly easy to put a 585-600 on a Mark V. In fact the Mark V only uses the rails to hold the front and rear receiver ring together, so a 300 with 378/460 magazine and follower plus opening bolt face should get you there. The vertical stack magazine should be OK and easy to play with.

Our Mauser/M70s were designed with the .470 case head in mind but obviously time has proven that they are fine for the .512 H&H body

The jump up in diameter from the Rigby and 378 case to the 585 would amount to a similar increase in body size as from the 30/06 to H&H size.

Is the Wby Mark V a bit of a sleeper for these big bangers?

Mike

Mike what is the Bolt diamter of these Mark V actions ??

Also the .505 gibbs has been done on the Ruger Magnum action, now if the Ruger takes the gibbs .640 rim then it would take the Nyati to wouldn't it ??

I like a push feed system just as much as a CRF system. However, I do not like the bolt locking lug system of the Weatherby. It is kind of pain to keep it clean. If it had a three locking lug system like the Sako then it would have been a fine push feed action. Sako got a big action chambered for the 30-378 and I think it would be a fine push feed action to chamber for a 500 A-Square. Have fun. Cheers! Ming

PC,

As the Wby is a full diameter bolt the bolt diameter is not relevant. The bolt is about .875 in diamter and then drops down to maybe .72 or so and the lugs protrude up from this smaller diameter section. However, unlike actions such as the M70 pushfeed, the bolt nose protrudes beyond the lugs so as to achieve the bolt in the barrel bullshit. Thus they are somewaht like a Rem 700 and with out the lugs being around the counterbore, if you opened the counterbore too much it would be very flimsy.

Looking at the bolt face on the 416, I suppose you could go to maybe a .620 rim.

But I was thinking that the vertical stack would be fine with rebated rims and that probably action strenght would not be an issue with the Wby action.

Mike

Mike I know Peter from Pro-Cal down my way had done a couple of 500 A Square Varients on the big weatherby action. He speaks pretty highly of it. He does not think much of the 602's & 550's infact he seems to hate them.

I know a gunsmith who used to work at weatherbee. He said that the Mark V's have lots of feeding problems because the thin sheet metal of the mag box bends quite easily. Unless its lips are in exactly the right position, the gun will misfeed. Add to that the recoil of the 600 OK, and there would likely be some reliability problems.

500 Grains,

Your friend is either a liar or does not know what he is talking about.

The Wby bolt design turns every case into a rebated rim and as a result they use a stong magazine spring. The magazine boxes are very strong for both the H&H case size and the 378 case size.

The lips of the vertical stack magazine for the 378 case are particularly strong. Try and load them threough the top and you will soon see how strong the lips are.

However, if you can bring a bolt back an then forward very quickly, you will jam a Wby, but because of the bolt design effectively making all cases a rebated rim..... nothing to do with weak lips on the magazine. But you do need to move the bolt very quick and I suspect that most people can't do that as this fault is never included in anti Wby postings.

In my opinion, the vertical stack push feed will always beat the staggered feed CRF in reliability of getting a catridge into the chamber.

If I stand a gun on its barrel with the bolt open and then belt the bolt closed, then the Wby vertical stack will win and especially with blunt nose bullets.

Mike

PC,

I think Peter has put his name on Sako, and therefore Wby follows the push feed theme.

As you also know, he has done a bit with the 500 A Square and the Wby is the easy way to go, which includes both the action and stock as compared to CZ and BRNO.

It is about 115 times easier for him to take a 300 Wby to a big banger than it is for any other action/rifle

Mike

500 Grains,

No nerve hit.

But I like to deal in facts.

There are probably few people on these boards as critical of Wby Mark Vs than me.

Both the Wby and Rem 700 are gimmicky, a product of the times when they were introduced.

But criticism should be accurate and a Wby does not have a flimsy magazine box, in fact, it is quite the opposite, especially those chambered for 378 case based calibers.

The main problem with Wbys and feeding is that the staggered feed ones are very rough and cut the case to pieces. This is all a result of the bolt design.

The 378 based calibers are easier on the cases because of the inline feeding.

Go look at a Wby tomorrow and then tell me how the magazine box could come out flimsy on the lips.

Mike

Mike,

I have not looked at a Mark V in 460 for about a year now. This gunsmith said that when he worked at Weatherby there were two things that they received back for repairs on a regular basis. The first was the Mark V in 460 and 378 because of feeding problems. He said that the lips got out of whack and had to be just right for the gun to feed properly. The second was the old mauser action weatherbees in things like 300 wby which suffered from lug setback.

I also suspect that these days with the accuracy guarantee they get a lot of inaccurate weatherbees back.

That gunsmith reported his experience working as a gunsmith at weatherbee. I have no reasons to think he would lie about it. And I reported it to you.

Your rebuttal is your personal opinion that the magazine box is strong. That's fine, but it does not address the gunsmith's personal experience.

Could it be that weatherbee changed the mag box design based on the number of guns they had to repair in the past? I don't know.

500 Grains,

To my eye, the magazine in a 378 or 460 is no different than it was 30 years ago.

Try and get a look at one and then see if you can go along with them getting out of whack.

The only thing I have seen with one is the tabs broke that hold the rear of the box to the sides. This is on one side.

The other thing you will occassionally see with them, is that if you pull the bolt back very very very slowly, the head of the case will not come up enough for the bolt to pick it up. This occurs if there is not enough bias on the spring at the rear and the basic cause is the bolt design. If the bolt nose had the bottom row of lugs (bottom when bolt is open)at the end of the bolt rather than back a bit, then a spring with weak bias at the back would not matter so much.

But again, I do think when you look at the magazine box of a 378/460, you will ask yourself how the lips could get out of whack.

Mike

Mike,

what you say about Peter seems to make since, That explains his quote I obtained from him in relation to building a .585. With us supplying barrel action etc, he came in at $5000.00AUS. That was just his smithing fee. Maybe he "wanted to quote himself out of the job" due to his hate of 602/550 actions.

Persoanlly Mike from what I have learned from you and others on this board I like CRF Mauser/M70 type stuff now.

Mike although it is easier to get the weatherby .300 to a big banger do you get a better product than the 550/602 in your opinion.

Can the new weatherby Van guard in .300 weatherby (howa derivative) be turned into a big banger ??

PC,

The Vanguard is the Howa and the bolt face would be a bit small. If memory serves me right, the Howa/Vanguar has the bolt nose protriding beyoond the lugs. With this type of set up, the counterbore would be so thing that if dropped the bolt you probably bend it. For a given bolt diameter you would always be able to use a bigger rim on a CRF action because the metal that sticks out from the bolt face to support the case against the extractor does not stick out nearly as far as what the depth of counterbored push feed bolts do. I think push feeds like the Howa and Rem 700 are best left for the 404 Jeffrey rim as maximum.

Mike

PC posted:

Mike although it is easier to get the weatherby .300 to a big banger do you get a better product than the 550/602 in your opinion.

I think it depends on what you want as an outcome.

For me, the CZ 550 is a much better basis for an Express style rifle because the Wby action (to me) just looks all wrong. I also think CRF is just a nicer action to use when all else is equal. Personally, I don't regard the CRF as being more reliable and in fact with a case where the bullet diamter is approaching the chamber diameter and blunt bullets are being used, I think the vertical stack Mark V system is more reliable for getting a cartridge to chamber.

I prefer the Wby from the scope mount point of view because it simplly takes Rem 700 mounts.

The CZ will always be a smoother cycling action because the Wby has very limited cam forward and primary extraction which is caused by the 54 degree bolt lift.

I have owned about a dozen Wbys and one problem they have (for me at least) is they do not go well when you own other actions as well and that is because of the 54 degree bolt lift. For me, the best results is either all Wbys or no Wbys.

I personally have always liked the look of Wbys, especially the Deluxe. But I also like women with big tits dressed in high heels

But overall, I think for big bangers that the Wby and the Wby calibers are probably the easiest and most ultility way to go but I would never had one ina caliber like 375 H&H, 404 Jeffrey, 400 Jeffrey etc.

Mike

Just wondering Mike as I want a caliber that will fit between my .416 Rigby & my .585. The .500 A2 or the .500 Jeffery are contenders, with the .500 A2 winning as far as practicality go. The .458's are also a consideration but there a little to close to the .416 caliber wise. I sort of want to split the difference equally and the .500 A2 varients are parctically in the middle of the two diameters.

What I would do if I built a .500 A2 or Jeffery is turn it into my "off the back of the ute big bore". It would of course be stocked with an Alan Naumann Corp Trading stock and would have an 19" barrel with 2" of break for 21" all up. It will just have a ghost ring sight.

PC,

Sounds like you need another CZ in 416 as a kick off as it should convert across to 500 A Square without too much hassle.

Woodleigh makes those black powder bullets in 440 grain in 50 caliber. They should do the job.

Mike

Even out of the short barrel 19" barrel if you used a slightly quicker powder, maybe AR2208??? you could possibly get 2700 fps with those 440 woodleigh bp's, they would work great on Aussie stuff