How would a 45/70 compare in a 50 yd. or less shot compare to a 12 gauge slug - sabot or not - on a large animal - Buffalo - Bear - etc.?

If they were of a similar hardness and meplat design, they would be comparable; the slug would have a .600"-.770 .700" frontal diameter to the .45-70's .458" frontal diameter.

George

It totally depends on the type of 12ga slug v the type of 45/70 bullet. A hard cast 400gr 45/70 will easily outpenetrate a soft 12ga lead slug. The newer 12ga sabot slugs woul dbe very close to a 45/70 JHP or JSP.

I can recall the result of a friend's testing armoured glass for a UK bank. It was claimed by the maker to be proof against X, Y, Z. And indeed it stopped everything thrown at it...until he fired one of the old Sellier and Bellot hard alloy (not lead - brass I think) saboted slugs at it.

They went clean through and make a good attempt at penetrating the steel stop plate behind. So probably because of the enclosing sabot you could fire a steel or tungsten reduced calibre slug from a 12 bore.

One could even cast up a lead "cup" around a steel penetrator. I think that in "olden" times moulds did exist to cast a composite projectile. Lead base and steel tip.

Certainly Lyman used, as recent as twenty years ago, make a moudl to cast a two part pistol bullet. Although in that case it was meant to be a linotype or wheelweight "cup" around a soft lead payload.

Which you would struggle to do in a .45-70. Where the .45-70 would win, of course, is in accuracy and being able to place the shot.

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:
...the .45-70 would win,...in accuracy and being able to place the shot.

Once you're past 75 yards there's not even a rational comparison between that apple and that orange.

Cheers,

Bob,

go to the cast bullets section and go to page 2. There is a post titled "Two Hours". The 12 gauge slug is the Lyman Sabot Shocker. 510gr or so, same-same 1 1/8oz. Start loading with hot trap loads and run until you start blowing wads up, or your shoulder gives out. I never blew and wads, but at 2000 or so fps in an eight pound rifled barrel shotgun it was enough for me. Slug mikes .670", so a big smack on impact.
Savage 210 is a fully rifled bolt action 12 gauge. Scoped about 46gr of Blue Dot will push 2000fps in mine, and a magazine full (2+!) will group under 2" at 100 yards. Might be the best Hogkiller available.

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Bob,

go to the cast bullets section and go to page 2. There is a post titled "Two Hours". The 12 gauge slug is the Lyman Sabot Shocker. 510gr or so, same-same 1 1/8oz. Start loading with hot trap loads and run until you start blowing wads up, or your shoulder gives out. I never blew and wads, but at 2000 or so fps in an eight pound rifled barrel shotgun it was enough for me. Slug mikes .670", so a big smack on impact.
Savage 210 is a fully rifled bolt action 12 gauge. Scoped about 46gr of Blue Dot will push 2000fps in mine, and a magazine full (2+!) will group under 2" at 100 yards. Might be the best Hogkiller available.

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

Guess I don't keep up on that as much being as I live and hunt in rifle states. I know that slug guns have gotten pretty good but then I'd pick neither of them as my answer for hog killin.

Dixie Slugs out of Old Town Florida loads a 730 grain .730 dia. Hard Cast slug.. Made to be shot in rifled barrels only, this is the most devistating slug that I have ever seen.. At the Linebaugh seminar in Jackson Miss. This year that slug penetrated 0ne inches less than a 400 grain partinon fired from a 416 Rigby (29" to 30") The slug also blew a 3 to 4 inch wound channel.
The Dixie Slug is basicaly a recreation of the Holland and Holland Paradox slug, except that it is a heat treated hard cast... This particular slug is head and shoulders above a 45/70 with any load...





http://www.dixieslugs.com/

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
Dixie Slugs out of Old Town Florida loads a 730 grain .730 dia. Hard Cast slug.... This particular slug is head and shoulders above a 45/70 with any load...

How well do they shoot? ~2" at a hunnerd? Might be something to think about.

quote:

Originally posted by tom`:

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
Dixie Slugs out of Old Town Florida loads a 730 grain .730 dia. Hard Cast slug.... This particular slug is head and shoulders above a 45/70 with any load...

How well do they shoot? ~2" at a hunnerd? Might be something to think about.

Wow. Your "Lions and Tigers and Bears" must be really really small if you need a two inch groups with a 730 gr .730 @ 1400 fps! If you need a group less than two inches just shoot once...

quote:

Originally posted by nordrseta:

Wow. Your "Lions and Tigers and Bears" must be really really small if you need a two inch groups with a 730 gr .730 @ 1400 fps! If you need a group less than two inches just shoot once...

Nothing to do with target size, just curious as to what the level of accuracy and precision were.

My Lott and my .375H&H will do 2" at 100 even if I don't always, just curious about this rifled 12 gauge in comparison.

Enfield spares

You could also load a Barnes type solid in the 45/70 as well.

I think on an animal like a cape buff I would prefer the proper bullet in a 45/70 to the proper slug in a 12ga.

On bears, lions and such I doubt it would make much difference.

I do know that George Hoffman killed a cape buff with a 12 ga slug, it was a 3" Remington if I remember correctly.

I can remember one of my late father's friends had once killed a tiger with a 12 bore shot gun. As a youngster I was most interested and aske him...everybody even thirty years after the event called him "Tiger"...what size buckshot he used.

The reply was amazing and I'll always remember it. "No6 shot...,they hold together remarkably at close range!"

If the range is stretched those Dixie slugs are in deep trouble.

quote:

Originally posted by Tyler Kemp:
If the range is stretched those Dixie slugs are in deep trouble.

Your point is?

If you put the 600gr hardened Dixies in one of my
12 gauges I've experimented with it will outdo
45-70, even the Lott. In an old design 1887 replica,
with so-called weak plastic 3" cases I get over 2000
fps, with a longer barrel I added. The damage to game
with a 600 gr at speed, is great deal more than
anything a 45-70 could do.And the 600 gr at our speeds
will shoot flater than the heavier bullets in
45-70. In the 12GA FH brass case cut back to 3 "
you can get 23-2400.Ed

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:
If they were of a similar hardness and meplat design, they would be comparable; the slug would have a .600"-.770" frontal diameter to the .45-70's .458" frontal diameter.

George

Er?.........uh? A 12 bore has a max tube diameter of .729" so I'm wondering how the .770" slug is going to make it's way into and out of that barrel. Even if it was squeezed through a .729 barrel (no chance given the pressures required in a thin shotgun barrel) I gaurantee it won't be .770" when it leaves a .729" barrel!

That must have been a typo..........

Wow! Sounds like an accurate rifled brl shotgun using super Dixie slugs could hold its own against a large bore rifle. Sound to me like the makings of a low budget double rifle. Why not?

!2 ga Brass slugs do real well at 3000fps. Like 6 feet of hard oak! Never saw anything else do that!-Rob

Read Rob's and my 12 GA From Hell thread.
You can do a double if they have heavy barrels to
handle the larger amounts of slower powder.
The NEF single Ultra slug gun does ok, with
loads getting 4-5000 ft lbs.
Rob has a big falling block 12ga FH he built.
The Dixie hard lead slug will go through
2 ft of hardwood, and tear a new asshole
as they say on the way. Nice thing is these guns
can be set up to shoot much more comfortably
than lever action 45s, even though they have
great power.Ed

Okay Tom, math class is now in session.

1. my slugs weigh 510gr out of 20:1 alloy. They measure .670" across that big flat head. Fifteen feet after
they exit the muzzle they are going right at or a bit over 2000fps. Please do look at the picture closely.

2. the 458 Win Magnum factory loads weigh 500gr. They measure about .344" across the widest part of the
exposed lead nose. Factory WW soft points. The ones I have shot over the years mushroom in phonebooks to
about .530" to .550" diameter and retain about 80% of the original weight.

You shoot a big Texas hog, what 450-500lbs? and 99 out of 100 are shot under 100yds? You see where this post is headed?

Go to beartooth.com and run both loads thru the ballistician's corner. The slug makes a little more ME, and the Taylor KO value is considerably higher. If the slug does not expand, it's still a .670" diameter entrance and exit hole; AND, it will penetrate side to side thru the shoulders and exit.

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

Macifej,

That was a typo. I thought I typed .700. Thanks for correcting that.

George

12 gauge rifled slug 2 3/4" shell
approx. .729" 440 grains, soft lead alloy
.118 sectional density
1450 fps
2054 fpe

45-70 Gov't Marlin lever gun
.460" 440 grains, hard lead alloy
.297 sectional density
1825 fps
3254 fpe

Seems a while back there was someone pushing some super duper buckshot load as the end all for dangerous game too.

quote:

Originally posted by jackfish:
12 gauge rifled slug 2 3/4" shell
approx. .729" 440 grains, soft lead alloy
.118 sectional density
1450 fps
2054 fpe

45-70 Gov't Marlin lever gun
.460" 440 grains, hard lead alloy
.297 sectional density
1825 fps
3254 fpe

Compare similar items if you want a meaningful comparison.

If the 2040fps/4700+fpe of a .458 Win. Mag. 510gr. FMJ are not a fair comparison to the .45-70 (with any load), why is the 1825fps/3254fpe of a .45-70 a fair comparison to a 12ga. Foster-style slug?

Within 75yds. or so, there should be no difference in lethality between the slug and the .45-70, assuming similar projectile contruction (e.g., hard-cast sabot slugs for the 12ga., and har-case WFN for the .45-70), and similar shot placement on SOFT-skinned game.

George

I'm still shooting the Remington Copper solids at 1 3/8 ounces with a muzzle velocity of 1325fps out of a rifled barrel of 20 inches. I would dare to say at 50 yards it probably is more effective than even a famed garrett hammerhead.

Jackfish,

read my post. As much as I like the 45-70, it cannot stand up to my 12 ga slug loads. A 510gr slug at 2000+fps is better than factory 458 WM under 100 yds. It's .670" when it hits whatever you shot at before expansion.

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

A 510 grain slug over 2000 fps is going to hurt on both ends. Is this in a normal shotgun? If so, why don't factory rounds have this level of power?

I still prefer my 45-70.

Tyler,

No.

It is in a Savage 210 bolt action, fully rifled barrel shotgun. Go to the cast bullet forum, find my post on "2 hours" and look at the pictures Boomie posted for me. The practical limits are how much recoil your shoulder can absorb and shoot accurately...just like everything else here.

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

A 12 ga solid makes a bigger hole than a fully expanded 45-70. A rifled 12-bore at 2500fps is a formidable weapon. Its time has come!-Rob

Of course specialty 12 gauge loads with a heavier bullet will do more damage most of the time. I thought we were comparing factory 12 gauge to factory (Garret, etc) 45-70 loads.

And there are reports of the hot loaded 12ga
Win factory sabot loads, I think about 500 gr
at 1800, going completely through deer,
penetrating like hairy rifles.Ed

Tyler,

'Factory loads' mean those adhering to SAAMI specs, not custom-loaded +P rounds.

Again, you're not comparing similar items.

George

quote:

Originally posted by Bob96:
How would a 45/70 compare in a 50 yd. or less shot compare to a 12 gauge slug - sabot or not - on a large animal - Buffalo - Bear - etc.?

Make no mistake-a smaller diameter, bullet-like slug launched from a sabot and the .45/70 bullet are pretty much the same. Both are much different propositions than a Foster-type, soft-lead, hollow slug. Foster slugs have MUCH Lower sectional density, and hence much lower penetrating power. Give me the .45/70 any day!! The solid sabot type slugs are more like big bore rifle bullets,and are also much better than Foster slugs.

"'Factory loads' mean those adhering to SAAMI specs, not custom-loaded +P rounds.

Again, you're not comparing similar items."



I admit defeat.