Well, I guess I just got over the idea that any rifle can stop a determined Cape buffalo, or elephant, unless the shot is properly placed. I should say, any rifle I could use or carry, not a 60 pound cannon, or some such thing.

If this 4 bore doesn't anchor a buffalo, nothing will.

http://african-hunter.com/site/firearms/4bore_part02_03.htm

gs

Stopping power is more bullet function then size. Breaking down the critter is whats stops them. Breaking shoulders, spine and brain shots is what stops. So as long as your bullets well do that. They well stop what your shooting at.

W.D.M. Bell remarked in Wanderings of an Elephant Hunter: "I have never been able to appreciate 'shock' as applied to killing big game. It seems to me that you cannot hope to kill an elephant weighing six tons by 'shock' unless you hit him with a field gun." There is obviously a lot of controversy about this.

PDog:
This guy did hit this cape buffalo with a field gun, and it still went 60 yards.

I think Saeed has the right idea. Penetration, accuracy, and long enough range so you are out of dieing charging range.

I've always wanted a 4 bore, or some sort of hand held cannon like it. But, after reading this, what's the point?

gs

Socrates: I believe your point is exactly Bell's. There is no substitute for bullet placement.

A 585 Nyati in the foot is still a 585 Nyati in the foot. There is no substitute for bullet placement. Unfortunately, none of us are perfect especially when a pissed-off buff is headed your way. Now a 585 Nyati in the head will get their attention right quick.-Rob

Maybe. I saw a buffalo hit right in the head at ten feet with a .500 NE and it made no more impression on him than a bug landing there. If you did not see the dust fly off his nose you would think the guy missed entirely. There was literally no reaction at all. Not a twitch. Nothing. The second shot actually hit the brain and it was lights out instantly (at five feet).

This is my idea of a stopping rifle and it doesn't even kick much. RPG16 with anti armor projectile.

Todd E

Although I don't use them anymore, I do believe the bigger the bore the more likely they are to turn a charge. I can see the difference in the Buffs reaction when hit with a 500 or a 577 over a 404 or 416 Rem., the two calibers that I use..and I can sure tell the difference in the reaction of a Bull hit with a 30-06 and a 416...there is a lot more to it than placing the shot correctly if you omit a brain or spine shot.

Granted a 500 in the head that misses the brain has very little effect on big animals on some ocassions, other times it will literally turn them around...but a chest shot with a 500 is more effective than one with a lesser caliber I believe.

The truth is they all will kill with a brain or spine shot, Lung shots, bone breaking shots and heart shots are the relm of the big bores, the big dog sleeps on the poarch everytime.

I don't shoot the big'uns as the recoil is excessive from all field positions in my opinnion, so I opt for the lessser rounds, but I don't kid myself with the holy grail of the perfect shot, sometimes it just don't work out that way and that old big boy will save your bacon I suspect.

Today we hunt with PH's and usually another armed hunter is around so it is not as important as when we hunted solomente.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Ray:

I agree with you, as I have before on this subject. The problem with recollecting guys like Harry Manners is that they happened to stay alive shooting a .375, but we'll never know how many died using one.

Manners had the opportunity to become proficient at killing shots, while it is impossible today for the vast majority to even approach the experience necessary. Sanchez being being one of the few.

Manners also got one of his gunbearers killed and his trackers bailed him out on more than occasion by also shooting.

Nothing like lack of experience to start recommending stopper rifles!

Will

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 01-29-2002).]

Very few PH's carry a backup rifle in a caliber less than 458 lott. That would indicate that the find cartridges 458 lott and up to stop dangerous game more quickly or more effectively than the lighter calibers. Of course, bullet size is not a substitute for bullet placment, but assuming proper bullet placment, greater bullet size seems to have a greater effect.

500grains, I agree 100%.
One can not compare a perfect brainshot from a 308Win against a 700 nitro bullet hitting an animal in the tail:-)

[This message has been edited by Rune (edited 01-29-2002).]

I think you can shock an animal, but I wonder if the shocking point, for Cape Buffalo, and elephant, is well beyond the ability of human beings to fire.

Something like a 20mm cannon or so.

I would like to see if velocity affected stopping power.

Could you 'knock down' a Mad Cape Buffalo using a 50 BMG becuase of the velocity of the bullet, and the slap effect to the nervous system caused by the effect of a large, high velocity bullet hitting?

At what point does this take effect?

If someone can heart and lung a CB using a 1/4 pound of hard lead, at pretty good velocity, and have the buff run away, for 60 yards, that's a pretty good indication that the large, slow moving bullet approach, at least for that shot, isn't going to work.

Perhaps a lot of that shock we see with smaller caliber, high velocity, is due to incompressible blood, being slapped, and affecting the nervous system. Perhaps
we are just incapable of firing anything large enough to slap a buffalo, from shoulders....

gs

WDM Bell shot buffalo with a 22 Savage, but he thought it was dangerous, he had to aim carefully.

Velocity beyond the expansion process at the magical 2400 has absolutly no effect of big ugly animals, a bigger cross section of bullet does..that is one of the few things I am sure of....so if you want more killing power than a 416 Taylor then don't go to a 416 Weatherby, go to a 45 Cal. such as the 458 Lott or 460 G&A, if you want more killing power than a 458 Lott don't go to a faster 45 cal. go to a 505 Gibbs....

I'm pretty sure in my own mind the above formula is in working order...

Not applicable on smaller animals such as deer, antelope where velocity is a real winner for instant kills. These animals are high strung and they succomb to shock...Buff and elephant do not..Moose do not...

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Ray:

Isn't the 458 the largest bullet really avaliable without going into absurd expense?

How do you get a 458 to 2400, with a 500 grain bullet, or larger? Longer barrel?

gs

Socrates,

You supposedly can get 2400 fps with a 500 grain projectile out of a 450 Watts.
The 450 Rigby, 450 Dakota, and 460 Weatherby can easily make it to 2400 fps out of a 24" barrel.

Todd E

Todd:
I like the idea of having some sort of factory ammo avaliable, and not an exotic wildcat setup, like the Watts, or super expensive.

Thanks for the suggestions though.

The 450 Rigby is not yet commercial, at reasonable prices, is it?

Of the suggestions you have made, the 460 WBY
looks like the choice, if you handloaded for it.

gs

Watts can fire the 458 Win mag ammo, as well?
gs

500 grains......I thought the .416 of one sort or another had taken over as the rifle of choice for the majority of PHs.

Gentlemen:
All of the above discussion, is exactly what I went through in my early years of being a PH. I often thought that bigger had to be better. After using .458s and .460 wb. .470 and saw some 500.s and a 577 I finaly came to the conclusion, that you still had to hit the game correctly. Therefore shootability
plays an importand part in any stopping rifle.You need enough bullet wt and velocity for adquate penetration. The .416's fit this slot perfectly and is the reason I settled on this caliber. Many shooters find that the 45's recoil mare and cannot do their most accurate shooting with such. This includes yours truly. May the 40 calibers live long. Ray has said it well.
George

[This message has been edited by George Hoffman (edited 01-31-2002).]

George:
After much discussion, I'm sure you are correct. As Bell said, you need a cannon to shock an elephant, or buffalo.

I just couldn't imagine hitting anything with a 4 bore, and having it run 60 yards, before dieing. Scary.

I think your choice is probably the right one for about 30% of the people, and the rest should be using a 375.

Oh, and then there is Mitch...

gs

Nothing like lack of experience to start recommending stopper rifles!

Will,

Haven't you been following all the threads about stopping rifles lately? There is no such thing as a stopper rifle! I think that it has been proven by many knowledgeable people through physics that no gun that can be fired from the shoulder will ever stop any large animal. It is all about conservation of momentum or something.

Now you can say great now someone that knows nothing about physics telling us about physics.

Kent

Kent,

That's not exactly what we are saying. What we are saying is that portable "normal" weapons are incapable of knocking a large animal over/off its feet/etc.

We've never even implied that one-shot stops are impossible! Instant collapse is possible; being knocked over by the impact of a bullet is not.

Pertinax

Pertinax,

Forgive me but if your rifle cannot knock over a standing animal how is going to stop one that is moving? The moving animal will be harder to knock over than the standing one. Your statement is kinda like saying it is easier to stop a car going 60 MPH as opposed to pushing a standing car backwards.

I stand by previous post. If the rifle cannot knock the animal over it ain't going stop the same animal. You cannot have your cake and eat it to.

Kent

George:
I guess you like the 416. Ray seems to like bigger calibers, and in all my reading, and a bit of big bore shooting, I've always thought bullet diameter God.

However, it seems like there are no cost effective big bores, once you go over 458.

Either the gun is super expensive, or the ammunition is.

I guess if you could design a 700 or 900 caliber cartridge, and use a big, relatively light slug, you could get the caliber, without the excessive recoil.
Does anyone know if anyone has a round, that weighs 500 grains, but has a huge caliber, and how it works?

Course you would have to cast your own bullets, out of super hard, to very hard material, and keep the velocity down, perhaps in the 1800 fps range?

I don't know. I've always heard 4 bores would be the ultimate stopper, then this guy hits a cape buffalo with one, and it runs 60 yards.

Now I don't know what to think, and George and Ray, both experts, have differing views of what caliber, and what works best.

Saeed has 80 buffalo with his 375 on steroids...

Don't know what to think on the issue.

I've always believed in caliber, in particular with handguns, since they are not much more then a hole punch. I guess the same is true with rifles, but, the hole has to be much bigger to have a much larger effect on game, and, the cost of creating and feeding such a beast is bigger then anything you might fire it on??

gs

I know of a round that is in the ball park you are describing. A 12 gauge slug in a three in magnum. 437 grains at 1760 fps. It won't consistently kill a 150 pound deer at 75 yards.

Speed kills man. Enerybody knows that. Use a fast rifle. I had to have a big gun so I bought a 416 Rem Mag M700 and converted to a 500 Jeffery because the 416 wan't big enough. Now I have yet to shoot anything big with it but I have found that the 416 out pentrates the 50 by quite a bit. As a matter of fact for killing power I would bet that the 416 is much better as it is faster. Consider Weatherby. He hunted big game all over the world and proved that faster is deadlier.

Kent

Socratcs:
I hope you did not misread what I said concerning the large bores. I too, like Ray, can see the difference a 500 makes when striking a animal. I also, think that for some people the various .458's including the wildcats are probaly the best compromise in the larger caliber, PROVIDING all can be shot with the same accuracy as the 40's for instance. I for one like the versitility of the various 416's and I am completely comfortable with one of these in any conditions I have incountered. That said, there are some circumstances tha I would like to have a double in my hands, such as really tall-thick grass or heavy underbrush.
That is not so much a caliber issue as rifle function.
George

If you look a little more closely at the Weatherby hype, you will see that speed works great on deer, but when you step up to elk it has little effect. Go bigger still and speed is irrelevant, as long as you have enough speed to achieve sufficient penetration.

Roy Weatherby did us all a disservice.

George:
What do you think of a long barreled 458 Magnum? Maybe the extra barrel will get the 2400 magic velocity number, and, with the longer barrel, say 26-28 inch, the lighter then 500grain bullets will perform better?

However, the 416 usually has a mag capacity advantage, and, the 375 is half the price to buy, and fire.

gs

SOCRATES;
This is the second time I have tried to post this message, so it will probaly be shorter this time.
I do not think a barrel length over 25" is very practial in a DGR rifle. If I had a .458 and needed more umph I would simply rechamber it to the Lott. However, if you did not want to do that, then, I would use the Speer GS with the flat nose and tung. carbide core. This is a shorter bullet and allows for more powder space. Speer handloading manual claims 2200 fps for this bullet, and would be adquate for anything.
George

[This message has been edited by George Hoffman (edited 02-03-2002).]

Socrates,
To answer your question, a 505 Gibbs and a few other calibers are a viable choice for dangerous game...

You have not read my posts very carefully, I am not a big bore fan at all, I shoot a 404 Jefferys with a 400 gr. bullet at 2200; a 450-400-3" at 2150 with a 400 gr. bullet and a 416 Remington 400 gr. bullet at 2350...but again I don't kid myself that a 505 with a 535 gr. bullet at 2350 FPS isn't a better stopper, hammer or whatever you want to call it...It is.

I use the smaller 40's simply because the 50's hurt me to shoot them..I have severe Bursitas in neck and shoulders, can't hear very well and most of that is from regulating iron sights on big bores and hunting with big bores and using cotton in my ears, back in the good old days. Also I can shoot my 40's from any position and have never felt the need for bigger guns although I have used them on ocassion. I wouldn't be able to answer your question had I not used the big bores (505 and 500 N>E> in my case)

Like George, I appreciate their use, but have not chosen that route.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Not a big bore fan?

"Velocity beyond the expansion process at the magical 2400 has absolutly no effect of big ugly animals, a bigger cross section of bullet does..that is one of the few things I am sure of....so if you want more killing power than a 416 Taylor then don't go to a 416 Weatherby, go to a 45 Cal. such as the 458 Lott or 460 G&A, if you want more killing power than a 458 Lott don't go to a faster 45 cal. go to a 505 Gibbs...."

Ok: This bit of logic, to my mind, indicates that you like bigger diameter bullets, whenever possible, for added killing power.

That said, I guess I was wrong on that bit of logic.

Intresting that both of you have more or less settled on the 416...

Gs

Sock Rates,
Just because I know something does not make me a big bore fan meaning 500 up, or perhaps I should say a big bore user...the extra recoil is something I have to concentrate on to handle and I don't like having to do that..I find the 40's effective enough to get me by.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Raygun:wink:
While I have your ear: What shots do you find the larger calibers can make that the 416 can't? I posted sort of a follow up to this thread, in another, discussing the effects of large bore rifles, using an analogy to boxers. There are certain body shots that are incapacitating on humans, liver, heart, etc. If you get nailed there, you can very well black out, or die.

Perhaps 'knockdown power' is the effect of hitting one of these points on a large game animal.

Do you know of any such spots, where the larger caliber bullets have a much more serious effect?

gs

Soc,
Yes the bigger bores will show more effect on shoulder heart lung shots and on going away body shots....If you hit the spine, brain then caliber makes little difference if it is enough to destroy that area...

This does not mean that a 416 for instance will not do a proper job, it will..but the 50's do have an edge and it is sometimes very visable or appears to be...

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Perhaps the visible part is the shooter being able to see the larger, slower bullet land?

gs

the bullet isn't slower just because its bigger, they all shoot about the same velocity if you notice, 2200 to 2400...then you have the Weatherbys blowing and going but showing litte more effect if any...

What I have noticed is the Buff just shudders and/or shakes when hit with a 500 or 505, and the 458 Lott to a slightly lesser extent. They let out a lot of blood from those big holes and don't make many tracks because they run out of gas pronto, they get very sick very quick. thats just my observation without proof or scientific value, but its good enough for me and I don't require agreement from anyone. I pass it on for what its worth and thats a cup of coffee if you have a dollar to go with it...

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Ray:
I thought you were talking about the nitro express variants in those calibers, that, are usually around 1800-2000 fps?

Regardless, your personal observations are great to have. Thanks.

I'm pretty much set on either a 375, or 416.

I kind of like the rigby bullet weight.

Still, a 375 is cheaper to feed.

I guess I would just make sure I'm at least 60 yards from any buffalo I fire at, giving him time to run out, and die.

Scary animals...

gs