What would the top three "pros" and the top three "cons" be with respect to this round? Essentially a .416 Rigby in a rimmed cartridge--for a double that seems pretty damn appealing.

PRO:

Good penetration.


CON:

1. Impossible to find ammo in Africa.

2. Poor resale value.

3. Not a stopper. Personally I prefer the concept of a double as a stopper.

Pros-
1.A good flanged round for a double rifle.
2.Make the double a bit more versitile. A scoped double could be a treat with the 500/416!
3.Shoots a long .416 bullet that penetrates well.

Cons-
1. Recoil on a par with the 470.
2. Can't find ammo in Africa, but neither can I for my 450/400 3 inch.
3. Not enough people using the round!

M

Take a look at my post of Jan 13. I asked the same question and there are 35 posts. I'm with you! It still makes a lot of sense to me.

LJS

Thanks for the referral, I will check out that thread.

Mike

LJS,

Other thread is interesting. Seems like the biggest knock on the cartridge is that it is not "nostalgic". Wonder if a buffalo would resent the fact that it was shot with a "new" round as opposed to an ancient round? I understand fully the rich history of double rifles and the appeal of cartridges that are almost 100 years old, but that is not to say that just because something is new it is in some way inferior or second class. Heard the same sort of thing on a post I made about Blaser S-2's. Damn thing looks funny, barrels are not soldiered, is fitted for a scope, has a different action, etc., same theme, because it is different the implication is that it is somehow inferior. I am all for tradition, and the rich history of double rifles and time tested cartridges, but I am also open to the possibility that some old things can be improved. Excuse me while I climb down off my soap box.

Mike

I agree with ALL the above posts!!!
I have shot a Krieghoff 500/416.
The Krieghoff is the only double rifle i know is avialable in 500/416.
If I liked the Krieghoff, and I did not want a 470 or a 500, then a 500/416 would be a great choice. Which of the 3 in a Krieghoff is the best.
I think the 500/416 is the best allround choice if you get your double scoped. A scoped double is a great hunting gun for pigs, leopard, lion, bear over bait and BIG bears in AK.
The 470 is well... a 470 Nitro Express, a Great calibre, the 500, is for the person who can take the extra recoil and who would be doing a lot of elephant hunting.

Heym makes a 500/416

I was told Westley Richards has a couple doubles in 500/416 under construction. It is a popular cartridge with the new Rigby as well.

new_guy and LJS
If that is the case, so much the better.
Chapuis and Merkel who chamber for the 416 Rigby should chamber for the 500/516, but I think there is some politics involved.

Butch also makes it...

here's my thoughts...

load it down to 2150, and call it the 450/400 #2 ...

at least, that what *I* am going to do

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by new_guy:
Heym makes a 500/416

Chapuis and Blaser make doubles in this caliber, too.

They know why...
The market asks for this cartridge...

I would have chosen this caliber but then came this good offer in .450 NE 3 1/4....

There are half a dozzen of them knocking arround Zim, and I have played with one a fair ammount and loaded for it.

I like it! It works fine on elephant - much better penetration than the .470 or .500 for raking shots at running away animals.

great on buffalo

Best flanged round there is for lion

Jeffe,

Because of the use of a 500 NE case for the 500/416 wouldn't you have to call your creation the 500/400 PapaBear or some such tag?

Perry

Last I looked the 416 rimmed wasn't in the Chapuis catalogue but that doesn't mean they won't build a gun for it. They were the first gun maker to produce double rifles in this chambering. They are still pissed off at A-Square as the round was developed jointly by Chapuis and A-Square and initially was called the .416 Chapuis and there are a number of double guns made by them so marked.

Without having dimensions at my fingers, will a 500/416 "clean up" a 416 Rigby chamber?

EDIT: No, it won't.

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
There are half a dozzen of them knocking arround Zim, and I have played with one a fair ammount and loaded for it.

I like it! It works fine on elephant - much better penetration than the .470 or .500 for raking shots at running away animals.

great on buffalo

Best flanged round there is for lion

Ganyana - how does the recoil of the 500/416 compare to the 470?

quote:

Originally posted by new_guy:

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
There are half a dozzen of them knocking arround Zim, and I have played with one a fair ammount and loaded for it.

I like it! It works fine on elephant - much better penetration than the .470 or .500 for raking shots at running away animals.

great on buffalo

Best flanged round there is for lion

Ganyana - how does the recoil of the 500/416 compare to the 470?

Just about the same...

quote:

Originally posted by Wink:
Last I looked the 416 rimmed wasn't in the Chapuis catalogue but that doesn't mean they won't build a gun for it. They were the first gun maker to produce double rifles in this chambering. They are still pissed off at A-Square as the round was developed jointly by Chapuis and A-Square and initially was called the .416 Chapuis and there are a number of double guns made by them so marked.

The 500/416 was developed by Krieghoff and W. Romey, i think...


"Rimmed Cartridge .500/.416 Nitro Express (3 1/4").

Because the ideal combination for dangerous game is a big bore double rifle chambered for a rimmed cartridge, Krieghoff has joined forces with WR Ammunition Company (Wolfgang Romey), the world renowned German specialist in big bore ammunition, to develop a new flanged cartridge - the .500/.416 Nitro Express (3 1/4")."

From: www.krieghoff.de

Safariscorsch, I am not the official historian on the development of the 500/416, but, my knowlege of the cartridge is that Chapuis and A-Square collaborated to develop a .416 rimmed cartridge for the Chapuis double rifle and then had a falling out as Chapuis wanted a proprietary type cartridge with their name on it and A-Square wanted to sell to others as well. They had a parting of ways and Kreighoff picked up the project and decided that putting Chapuis on the cartridge headstamp wasn't in their interest either and went with the 500/416 name. Now, there are certainly others who can confirm or deny this, probably the Chapuis dealers know the real scoop. I think you will find that Chapuis produced the first double rifles in this caliber (for the 416 Chapuis around 1991 I think). There was an earlier thread where we went round and round on this. Here is the link:

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tp.../580109841#580109841

What is the diameter and thickness of the rim on the 500/416?

It should be the same as the 470 & 500.

.

I am curious about the "recoil" comparisons between the 500/416 and the 470NE. I own a 500/416 but do not own a 470NE. However, I do own a 450x 3 1/4, and although the guns are made by diferent manufacturers, hence we are talking about perceived recoil, my impression is that the 500/416 has less recoil than my 450. Just the momentum numbers would bear this out ie. 400x2400 vs. 480x2150. (I use the 480 grain rather than the 500 grain bullets)
Peter.

Peter,
I was thinking the same thing when I saw the posts about the recoil being comparable to the 470. All the doubles I have shot have been the same make (New Rigby's)so the stock designs have been pretty much the same. The 470's had one or two mercury tubes in the buttstock and the 500/416's had none.
While the recoil on the 470's wasn't "too bad", I could definetly feel the effects after 20 or so shots. With the 500/416 I felt I could shoot it all day without any ill effects.
So to me one of the pluses of the 500/416 is that it is a pleasant caliber to shoot. I also talked to Mark Watts at the SCI show, and he was extremely happy with the 500/416 Rigby that he had taken to Africa.

Alf,

Just how many elephants have you stopped?

How many have you dropped, or staggered?

Peter,

Have you cronograghed you 450NE 3 1/4"? I wonder if you are comparing claimed numbers with real numbers. For example, Kynamco list the 450NE 3 1/4" as a 480 grainer at 2150 from 28" barrels, the 470 NE as 500 grainers at 2125 from 31" barrels. If you rifle has shorter barrels your not getting the "advertised velocity with real length barrel, especially with a 470.

JPK

The reason I ask about the 500/416 rim is that the A Square book shows the 416 Rim at .060 thick.

At a DRSS hunt a while back I fired a 450/400 3", 450/400 3 1/4" [mine] and a 500/416 , my 450 No2 and a 470.
The 500/416 had more recoil than the 450/400's, but less recoil than the 470.
The 500/416 recoil was faster than my 450 No2. My 450 No2 kicked less than the 470. My 450 No2 weighs 11.5 lbs and has 28" bbls.
For the modern hunter I think "stoppers" start with the 450/400.I feel the 500/416 would make a great double rifle calibre.
As m any have said, put the bullet in the right place and everything will be OK. So pick the rifle you can shoot the best.
That said I beleive in physics.
Heavier bigger around bullets thjump harder. They are only better if you can place them accurately.

.

Found this Searcy for sale, no waiting for someone.

500/416

Hog Killer

With regard to recoil, I've done quite a bit of shooting with the .450/.400, .500/.416, and .470 in rifles of similar weight. My first session with the .500/.416, I fired 25 rounds of WR factory ammo from the bench and was disappointed when I ran out. Personally, I can't tell any difference in recoil between the .500/.416 and the .450/.400. The recoil of the .470 is a major step up, and not at all comparable to that of the .500/.416.
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

JPK, funny you should ask! I went to the range last Sunday with my chronograph. My 500/416 loads were alittle over 2500 fps, while the 450 3 1/4 were in fact under 2100 fps. Now I only fired 4 rounds of each, so these are just ballpark figures. However, my 450 is much heavier than the Kreighoff 500/416.
Peter.

Peter, all,

Interesting. I find recoil speed to be a huge factor in perceived recoil for me. Recoil speed seems directly related to velocity, so bigger and slower seems to be less of an issue than smaller and faster, within bounds.

For example shooting 500 grain 458wm loads at about 2090fps, I perceive more shove but equally tolerable recoil than the faster recoil of a 350 grain load sitting over the same powder load, which gives the 350 grainers about 2240fps.

My (current) thinking on a stopping rifle, where elephants are concerned, and an elephant rifle in general, is that a round needs sufficient penetration to reach the brain to be effective when the shot is true, but when it isn't true (or circumstances dictate that it can't be true) then more weight, diameter and momentum are your saviors, not more penetration.

In line with that thinking, I would rather have the basic 500 case shooting the .474" 500 grain bullets at sufficient velocity for penetration than .416" 400 or 410 grain bullets with more velocity for more than sufficient penetration.

My thoughts for what they're worth,

JPK

Thanks for all the good insights.

Pretty much what I would have expected. When you stack up the facts, the .500/.416 comes out pretty well. Relatively flat shooting, recoil generally less than a .470NE and good penetration. Seems like the one issue yet to be overcome is the availability of ammo. What about the availability of reloading components, particularly dies and brass?

Mike,
the bubba's will be building at least one of these, if not a couple, this year. There's a single shot that nearly there, and a couple doubles in the works.

of course you realize that the capcity and loading is VERY close to your 416 rigby, on the case, and the recoil level will be right there, along with the performance

jeffe

But it is available in a double . . . need I say more.

MJines,

The round uses 500 cases so supply souldn't be an issue. But you will need some properly headstamped for Africa, just in case.

Can I ask why you seem focused on flat trajectory for a DG round? This issue isn't one I see, and I'm curious, especially for a - presumably? - open sighted, rifle what your thinking might be.

JPK

I am intrigued by the Blaser as a one gun safari rifle. Snap off the scope and you have a powerful cartridge for buffalo (okay, now let everyone chime in about the automatic safety, etc.) in a double rifle set up with two rapid shots. Clip the scope on and you have a gun that you can use effectively out to 150+ yards for plains game, etc. Just seems like a nice combination particularly given the ease of using a scope on the Blaser. For those that have not tried the scope mounting system on a Blaser it is superb.

Peter,

If you do not mind me asking, how do you like your .500/.416? If you buy you ammo commercially, where do you get it? If you reload, what load(s) do you prefer?

Thanks. I am considering this caliber for a buffalo hunt in September.

Mike

Mike

Superior Ammunition can provide loaded ammo with the proper headstamp.

Superior is an option, but it is darn expensive. Would have to come up with something cheaper and probably reload.