I've read a few reports of the large bore X-bullets loosing their pedals at 2400-2500 fps. I believe those reports were on the earlier X design.

Question is, have those using X's in 40 caliber and larger found this to be true in game or test media? I would really like to see what the 500 Jeffrey's capabilities are on game when pushing a 570 gr bullet @ 2400-2500 fps, but not sure if there is a bullet out there tough enough for that task.

I have experienced petal separation in wet paper in the smaller bores at 2700 to 2800 fps. However, I think, based on some field reports, that the petals are not generally lost on impact with tissue at velocities that low. We never recovered an X-Bullet on game in Namibia except the one that hit a twig and impacted sideways - and it didn't open up at all (although it did kill very fast!).

Paul,
If you want to bring your chrono to the range
we can get an idea. I shot the 400gr X's into a sand hill and lost a couple of different petals on 2 different bullets. I didnt see any rocks that they might have hit. Distance was about 75yards. I'll bring along one of the bullets.
Besides I'm curious how fast these things go using 3031 powder.

Although it's a small bore, the .308" 165 gr X flat base shot out of my .300 Win. Mag at 20 ft into water filled paper cartons lost all of it's petals. The petals were all recovered in the cartons and so was the remaining slug which weighted 80 grs.

The impact velocity was 3100 fps out of the 26" bbl. The load was 73.0 gr of IMR 4350 and it was maximum for that bullet.

I recovered 3 Barnes X from game in Africa.

Ruger KM77RSP in 300 Win Mag. 180 grains, flat base XLC (coated) muzzle vel 3210 fps

Game taken:

Great Kudu, 150yds
Gemsbock, 60 yds
Blue Wildebeest, 120 yds

all bullets lost their petal, all showed a recovered weight of 80% (exactly), all were one-shot kills

Hi Paul,
In calibers .375 on up, I have never lost a petal unless heavy bone was squarely hit on entry. I have lost all 4 petals with the 270 grain .375 X and 350 grain .416 X but in both instances heavy bone was hit onside and the higher velocities of these, light for caliber bullets, also played a role, IMO.
With the 400 grain .416 X, at somewhat lower velocity, incident of petal loss is reduced and with the 450-500 grain .458 X petal loss seems to be reduced further still, even at Lott velocity. It can still occur however, depending on range and what bones are hit. I have two .458 bullets with 99% weight retention, both recovered from buffalo.

My thinking is that, with each step up in caliber, the individual quadrants of the X bullets are heavier and thicker, thereby, less likely to peel back and actually separate from the shank. It's my guess that .50 caliber X bullets will be optimum in your rifle. The 570 grain X bullets for my Gibbs have enormous petal size and I am anticipating fabulous performance on buffalo.

[This message has been edited by Nickudu (edited 01-23-2002).]

Paul,

A PH I used said that he sees a couple of X bullets per year lose their petals, usually in .375 or .416 caliber. Sorry, but that's all the data I have (I can make some up if you want ;-)

Most of them lose their petels I believe and at any velocity, I think when they hit bone the petals fly off, but secondary metal can be very effective...I have gotten two exit holes on big game more than several times in my 6x45 at 2800 plus with 75 Gr. Barnes X and I notice a lot of Saeeds recovered bullets loose petals...

Ross Seyfried tells me it Barnes' quality control and I believe that...I use GS custom monlithics and they don't seem to loose the petals, but thats based on limited use..You can certainly tell by the exit hole if petals are lost..A perfect barnes or GS will leave an X exit hole I have noticed..

I'd like to hear from Gerard on this exit hole theroy of mine.

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Gotta agree with Nick and Ray.
I recovered three 2400 fps 400grn .416 x-bullets on my last trip. Spine shot on a Sable, texas heart shot on Bushbuck and shoulder shot on an Eland. Sable spine mangled the petals together with one missing. Perfect expansion with one missing petal from the Bushbuck and a perfect mushroom with no missing petals from the eland. Seems pretty clear that if it hits bone, you are gonna lose petals. That said, that shank is pretty heavy and will continue to do damage after a petal or two is gone. All shots were between 60 and 100 yards.

Regards,

JohnTheGreek

John,
I think there is too much emphasis placed on the loss of petals. The X bullets seem to kill well, petal loss or not. The collateral damage resulting from these secondary projectiles can be astounding. A novell way to look at the X bullets is as a solid that creates a long and wide wound channel. I consider them the best expanding bullets for heavy game.

Has anyone had any results with the 500 gr. in the 470 N.E. or the 570 gr. in the 500 N.E. I'm concerned that these two cartridgs don't develop enough velocity to preform well. Any first hand info would be appreciated.

Butch,
Check your email ...

Nick,

I couldn't agree with you more! I dont give a damn if I lose all four petals with an x-bullet. This might just give me the added benefit of an exit wound to augment the great wound channel that was just created.

Regards,

JohnTheGreek

Maybe I have just been lucky but I have yet to lose a single petal on an X bullet. I have taken 3 animals with a 210 grain .375, 1 bullet recovered, 50 plus with 270 grain X .375 6 recovered and 3 with 500 grain .458 1 bullet recovered. I have never had more than 1 exit hole. The closest I guess to losing a petal I took a Cape Eland with 270 grain in my 375 and 1 petal was partially torn and laid flat against the shank of the bullet. However this doesn't mean that the next one does not blow up.

I believe it mostly has to do with velocity. A friend I was hunting with in Alberta took a moose with a 375 Weatherby shooting 270 Xs. The bullet lost all 4 petals from a range of 75 yards.

Mike

MLindsey,
Hi Mike,
Very interesting. What were the animals taken with the 210 X and do you recall the ranges? I have two excellent loads for this bullet but have used it only on woodchucks and a few whitetails, to date. I would like your opinion as to its' practicality for other applications. Thanks.

It seems that there are two problems with losing petals on an X bullet.

First, unless all 4 petals are lost at exactly the same time (unlikely), the bullet will be out of balance and will likely change path within the animal. This could result in it not reaching the vitals if deep penetration is needed to do so.

Second, if an X loses its petals, it is much lighter than a solid would be in the same caliber, resulting in decreased penetration.

I think I would rather shoot a solid instead of an X bullet with broken off petals.

Sounds like from what I'm hearing, the X will do what I'm after, remember, I'm looking for a soft skinned animal bullet. I don't have to have 100% weight retention. My main concern is that the petals don't just blow off autimatically if pushed 2400-2500 fps. If I lose a petal, two, three or four on bone, thats ok.

Thanks for the replies, big blue X it be.

500 grains, in the tests I have conducted the bullet path does not appear to veer, even where only one petal sheared off. It still has considerably gyroscopic stability. Secondly, the petals typically represent only 5% of the total mass of the bullet (each) so losing all of them would still leave you with an 80% retained weight, which is pretty good. Think of it as a solid with benefits.

In general I regard petal shearing as a slight complaint. Any velocity high enough to produce this effect will permit that blunt ended cylinder to produce a very good wound and if they come off after smashing through a scapula or spine I think the game's over. Either way its not much to complain about.

In his site GS bullets says that bullet fragmentation is a major cause of bloodshot meat. To me this is a non problem. I want the animal dead and high velocity bullets that perform well have flatter trajectories and less recoil.

I just don't know if that piece of bullet is more or less deadly if it's attached or not to the base.

I might still be using X bullets if they had not fouled the bore so bad and produced such low velocity at maximum pressure.

Harald,

Your tests sound interesting. There are however, a hauntingly large number of stories about Barnes bullets taking odd paths through animals. I have heard 3 or 4 stories about Barnes bullets exiting on the same side that they went in, or making a 90 degree turn within an animal. I have no explaination for the phenomena, nor can I testify to the veracity of such accounts. No doubt, the majority of those who hunt Africa are delighted with Barnes X bullets.

For those using Barnes X, how do you crim them?

500 Grains,
I generally seat the "X" bullets as deep as possible so that I can just feel the forward edge of the cannelure with a razorblade. Then, as an entirely separate operation, I crimp lightly. I use the Lee collet crimp when available for a given caliber, otherwise, I screw the seating die to the case mouth and go only 1/8 turn more at the most. I repeat the crimp a few times until it feels right .. just a habit.

500 Grains, I have a possible theory. In Namibia my brother shot a warthog at maybe ten yards as it came to a waterhole where we were lurking. This is incredible but completely true. The warthog dropped flat and was a goner in seconds. Much glory and so forth. Back at camp the skinners removed the bullet. We had asked because it was the only X-Bullet (as I recall) that we had not observed to exit on a broadside hit (or any other hit for that matter). The recovered bullet was largely undeformed, its petals just mashed over slightly on the tip and two splayed out a tiny amount. This puzzled me immensely and I was very critical of the otherwise oustanding X-Bullet until it occurred to me how uncanny this was and our PH commented that the entrance wound looked funny. Upon examination of the entrance it was a perfect sideways "keyhole" slot in the hide. Somehow (this is the incredible but true part) in just ten yards distance, that bullet had touched a twig and been sent tumbling so that it was fully sideways at impact. It went across the chest, smacked the opposite shoulder blade and then skated back under the skin (stretched to its limit I do not doubt) and buried itself in the offside ham, effectively making a left turn in the body of the warthog. It might easily have exited and had it done so we might easily have proclaimed it a lousy, unreliable, strangely behaving bullet. We had two incidents of bullets being deflected by brush in our brief safari and I believe that this happens a lot more than people are willing to believe. I was amazed at how much deflection will be caused by twigs. Anyway, that is a theory for how a bullet may exhibit a lot of strange turns. It could be that all the facts in each case were not examined in sufficient detail to discover what really happened. Had we not recovered that bullet I would never have tried to find out why it turned.

Nickudu,

7 animals have been taken with my .375 210 grn X. 2 black bear at about 75 yards and 5 Quebec Caribou at ranges up to 175 yards. In my original post I just remembered my trophy caribou but my buddy took some caribou for himself with it. I only recovered 1 bullet which was the one from my caribou, perfect mushroom. I do not even remember the load, I changed to 270 grns after that.

Mike

Nickudu

I posted an answer but it did not appear on screen.

The two black bear were taken at about 75 yards with complete pass throughs. Actually 5 caribou were taken with the 210 X, if forgot by buddy took 4 with it. All caribou were taken between 100 and 200 yards. I only recovered 1 bullet, a front chest shot and the bullet was perfect. I don't remember the load, I switched to 270 grn after that hunt.

Mike

Thanks Mike! I have one loading at a slowish 2,850 that is amazingly pleasant shooting and I can't shoot well enough to do it justice. It wants to put every shot into the same hole. I thought I'd bring some along for use on the lighter plainsgame (say, up to 400 Lbs.), while retaining my 270 "X" loading for the heavier stuff. From what you say, the 210 "X" should be fine. Now, if I can somehow lower its' point-of-impact @ 100 yards about 4 inches, I'll have the ideal full-spectrum plainsgame rifle.

I was on hand when Lazzeroni was testing his 130gr. X bullet loads out of his Warbirds at a chronographed 4000-4100fps (and I saw a 1/4" group at 100 yards with that load!!!). On one hunt we took 3 big boars with that load in 3 rifles. All three were one-shot kills ranging from 90 to 200 yards. All three were full penetration and seemed to exit as an "X" pattern (no bullets recovered). But he has a special contract with Barnes for his bullets so his quality control maybe better.
In other calibers I've seen very few petals lost up to and including .375 and .458 velocities. I've lost a lot of petals in animals pushing the 300gr. X at about 3000fps in the .460 Wby. but then that's just a stupid conbination.
Kyler

------------------
Being ready is good, being safe is great, being both is tough.

Harald I sure have enjoyed your posts!. I have an interesting(and similar) tale. My son shot a warthog at about 70 yards with a 30-06 and 220 gr Nosler partitions. If there was a bullet and load combo that I would have figured would have plowed through any hog on the planet this would have been it. It was a side on shot. This bullet too hit on the left shoulder and exited on the off ham. This bullet too, took a 90 degree turn inside the animal. No twigs that I could see. This one is a mystery to me. My guess is that it hit the spinous process of the scapula and smeared the front half of the bullet. This left it with a front leading rudder, pushing the bullet to the right. Maybe this instance of yours is not tracable to Barnes Bullets. Good hunting. "D"