I think 'D Hunter' has/had one with a .419" bore.

George

Roger, g'day!

Yes sir, all the .375 UMs I've reformed to date (100 rounds) are factory-new from Midway.

After removing the decapping assembly from the .404 sizing die, I resize them until they will JUST BARELY chamber in the rifle. It doesn't take much effort on the lever, either, but I prefer to do this in two stages and re-lube in between. This should help minimize case damage....I haven't lost a single one to date, so I reckon it's working!

This leaves a really-weird-looking case, believe me, with the .375 neck and half of the .375 shoulder, and the rest of the shoulder with the sloping .404 profile.

I then fireform the cases to expand the neck/shoulder area. Around 20 grains of 2400, topped with a full case of cornmeal and a very small piece of tissuepaper in the case mouth to hold it all together for transport, works perfectly. Pointing the rifle straight up in the air for firing helps form the mouth more evenly, I find. Do this at the range...it's too loud for the back yard!

Trimming has not been necessary except for a very minor amount to even-up the case mouths. However, this is for my rifle, and others may vary, I expect. I've also reformed one box of .338 UMs in this manner, but the .338s are about 1/8" too short to begin with. Best to use .375 UMs if at all possible.

I hope this helps. $12/20 for cases whips the daylights out of $40/20 anyday, in my book. The minor differences in rim and base diameters are no problem in either loading or functioning in my Mauser. Now, I have to get at the loading of these test loads with .416 bullets!

Nartin,

Thanks for the offer, but I'm still quite aways from doing paper patch. BTW, very good reading from your post.

Roger QSL

BANG!
rattle rattle rattle

jeffe

I suspect they would rattle like a BB in a boxcar...the other question is why does he want to know?

Roger

do you want some .366 bullet's i have some here.

286's nosler's about 200 of them just drop me a PM

with your name and address and i will shoot them off to you for say 20 buck's plus shipping cost's

there the old vertion i got years ago from Tony Sailer



The S&H Should be only about 8 or 9 buck's

=========================

Sorry i got confused there guy.. it was .423 bullet's you wanted not .366 Yik's ...

i can make you up a few .423's in a thin wall fairly cheap to shoot thay would be in a 0.030 jacket...



Sorry again for the mix up on my part

God i said .366 diam yik's
50 lash's ......

i am running between here and the basemnet making bullet's up and finished up some.366's and was making up some sqample .423's and am going to be heading down to do a really short run of .510 in 600 grain ...

a ya it would rattle down the barrel ...or if you wanted to you could sabot the .366 ..Ok ok never mind i need to be confused down stair's not up stair's ..

A good friend of mine bought an old Ruger mini 30 and was shooting 308 cal bullets and getting groups of between 8 and 10 inches at 100 yards. We slugged the bore and found it was .312". With the .312 bullets it grouped 2-3" at 100 yards and that was only a .004" difference.

Paper patch it



=========================================================

At one time no one would have given a second look at a cartridge that was loaded with a paper patched bullet. These cartridges and bullets were part of everyday life, not taken for granted, but not considered out of the ordinary.

For the hunter the paper patched bullet provided clean, reliable one shot kills as the pure lead bullets penetrated well and expanded flawlessly. For the target shooter the paper patched bullet gave fine accuracy without leading. European armies marched off to glory confident that the ammunition they carried would not fail them.

Then the metal jacketed bullet appeared. The paper-patched bullet was quickly forgotten. Why this happened is partly because of the development of the semi and full automatic weapon. As the military of the world armed its troops with these fast firing weapons the bullet and cartridge had to be able to withstand the rough handling in the feeding mechanism of the self loading gun. The metal-jacketed bullet was without doubt superior for this purpose.

In addition the caliber of the guns constantly decreased making applying the paper patch more difficult. At the same time the need to produce millions of cartridges in the shortest time possible and at the least cost became a critical requirement. Since the paper patch is usually applied by hand production simply couldn't meet the demand.

Sporting arms development tends to follow advances and trends in the military, so the metal jacketed bullet quickly took over the target and hunting ammunition used by the sportsman. The paper patched bullet was relegated to the museum or forgotten corner of the loading room.

And yet is it any less effective than it was in earlier days? Game of all types has been taken with this type of bullet. Deer, elk, Kudu, Gemsbock have all been successfully hunted with the pure lead bullet wrapped in paper. Just as lion, tigers and other dangerous game have fallen to it. For Cape buffalo, elephant, or other heavy game a hardened paper patched bullet was used with results equaling or surpassing the metal-jacketed bullet.

For the target shooter the paper patched bullet gave fine results and still can. This bullet is at home on a 100 range or a 1,000-yard range. Choose the cartridge to suit the competition and remember that the paper patched bullet isn't limited to cartridges such as the .50-110-450. A paper patched thirty caliber will give surprisingly good results.

Another consideration to ponder is that the paper-patched bullet is made with materials that will always be available. On the other hand commercial bullet jackets have always been expensive and the supply has always been uncertain. Those who use only metal-jacketed bullets can, overnight, be at the mercy of the big bullet and ammunition makers. Will they make the bullet you need and at a price you can afford?

What is a paper-patched bullet? In short it is simply a bullet that uses a paper jacket in place of the metal jacket. The paper jacket serves the same purpose as the metal one: to prevent leading of the gun bore and to allow higher velocities.

Properly applied the paper jacket or patch will prevent leading and do so without leaving any other fouling to be removed. Velocities that can be achieved with the paper jacket are respectable. A velocity of 2,200 feet per second (fps) is possible and this can be increased to 2,500 fps in some rifles. The paper patched bullet isn't limited to blackpowder velocities.

Why is this bullet called "paper patched"? It's hard to say at this point in time. Probably this came from the use of the patch on the round lead ball of the Kentucky rifle. A cloth patch was applied to the round ball as it was loaded to better seal the bore, prevent leading, and improve accuracy. Since the paper wrapper on the improved cylindrical bullet serves the same purpose why not use the same terminology? In fact, for a short time, metal-jacketed bullets were referred to as being metal patched.

Whatever one chooses to call the paper-patched bullet it really is a jacketed bullet, a different jacket material, but jacketed none-the-less. One you can make, use at less cost, and without concern about jacket supplies not being available.

http://www.rceco.com/techtalk.htm#paper
===============================================

The best paper for the patched bullet has a twenty-five percent cotton content. Higher percentages of cotton, up to one hundred percent can be used but these papers are more difficult to work with and are more expensive. A suitable paper, such as Eaton Air Mail paper, can be purchased at stationery or office supply stores.

Papers are classified by their weight with computer printer paper being in the twenty to twenty-four pound range. This paper is too thick for our needs and would be hard to use. A paper with a nine pound weight is a good choice. This should have a thickness of .0025". I take my micrometer with me when I buy paper and measure the thickness before I buy it. I have found that the weight designation doesn't always mean that the thickness will be the same.

Sometimes you might be able to find a cotton paper that has a thickness of .003" to .004". This can be a useful paper to have if you want to experiment with the patched diameter of the bullet. Going the other direction you can use dressmaker's pattern paper for reducing the diameter of the patched bullet. For the advanced paper patched bullet user other materials such as Teflon tape, adhesive computer labels, or copper foil can be used. Copper foil, available at stained glass shops, has a great deal of potential and allows higher velocities than will paper patches.

In older times a person would make up a steel or brass template the size of the patch. The template would be placed on the sheet of paper and a razor blade would be moved around the template to cut the patch out. This still works but is a little slow if many patches are needed. A better way would be to get a good paper cutter and use it. Spend a few more dollars and get a quality, ruggedly built cutter, it will do a better job than the cheap plastic ones. The cutter will let you quickly cut the paper into strips of a uniform size.

A wood or metal strip can be fastened to the paper cutter and set for the angle needed which is commonly forty degrees. Threaded inserts can be put in from the underside of the cutter board, which will permit the guide strip to be easily removed or installed. A series of marks can be made on the guide to indicate the patch length. The paper strip can be placed against the guide strip and moved from mark to mark quickly cutting the patch to the correct length and angle.

Paper has a grain direction just as wood does. Sometimes you can determine the grain direction by holding the paper up to a strong light and looking for the watermark. The grain is supposed to run ninety degrees to the watermark direction. I'm not convinced that all paper has a watermark or if it does I can't always see it. An easier way to determine the grain direction is to cut two strips of equal length and width from one sheet of the paper. The strips should be about the same length as your patch would be. Cut one from the length of the sheet, cut the other across the sheet. Then hold each strip of paper by the very end and see which one sags the most. The paper that sags the most is cut across the grain. The paper strip that is cut in the same direction as the grain is stiffer and stronger so will sag less.

While the grain direction isn't very important the paper strip that is cut across the grain will be a little easier to apply to the bullet and will shrink a little tighter to the bullet. The main thing is to cut all of the patches in the same direction.

Most patches are cut in a parallelogram shape. This is traditional and works well. It is also possible to cut the patch in a rectangle and this will also do a good job. When the end of the parallelogram patch is twisted into a tail the patch will tighten on the bullet a little more than the rectangular patch will. Either method will work but I prefer the angled patch as it has a classier look on the bullet.

At one time the direction the patch was applied was important. The rifling was supposed to unwrap the patch as the bullet traveled down the barrel. If you have an original Pope rifle this will be a consideration. Modern rifling cuts the patch into strips, which then leave the bullet as the bullet exits the barrel. As a rule of thumb the patch angle should be the same direction as the rifling twist but with the deep, sharp modern rifling this isn't especially important. Do apply all of the patches in the same direction.

The patch is dampened before it is applied to the bullet. This can be done by simple popping the patch into your mouth and pulling it gently out between your lips. This will dampen it enough but if a person is handling many bullets the question of lead poisoning does arise. A better method would be to dampen two sponges and draw the patch between them. The idea is to wet the patch enough so that it will be limp, flexible, and stick to the bullet easily. As the patch dries it will shrink tightly to the bullet. The patch must be damp enough so that it will roll onto the bullet easily but not so wet that it will tear or stretch too much. There is no way to specify exactly how damp the paper must be but once you've done a few bullets you'll develop a feel for the process.

You can use the kitchen table or your workbench as a place to patch the bullets but a better way is to make up a patching board. The size of the board isn't important, just make it large enough to be easy to use. I made mine out of strips of maple and glued them together to make a laminated board, then gave it a couple coats of urethane varnish. However a piece of smooth plywood would do just as well. Near the bottom edge of the board cut a shallow groove using a router or table saw. The groove should be deep and wide enough to keep the bullet from rolling off of the board but the groove doesn't need to swallow the bullet. Then cut another shallow groove ninety degrees to the first groove on the right side of the board. Or left side if you are left handed.

The groove at the bottom keeps the bullet in position while the vertical groove provides a guide for the patch. Lay the dampened patch on the board with one end of the patch extending off of the bottom of the board a little. Align the patch along the vertical groove and then place the bullet on the patch. You can then pick up the end of the patch that is hanging off of the board and easily and accurately roll the patch onto the bullet. Once the patch is on the bullet give the patch tail a little twist to tighten the patch and set the bullet aside. A useful tool to have is a piece of wood with a series of hole drilled into it. The patched bullets are placed nose first into the board and left to dry. This helps to speed up the drying process. If you are in a hurry a hair dryer can be used or the kitchen oven can be employed to dry the patches.

Usually two wraps of the nine pound paper will be used. The paper will shrink a little as it dries so that the diameter of the finished bullet will be slightly smaller than expected. If the paper is .0025" thick the patch will add .009" to the bullet when the patch has dried.

The width of the patch should be enough so that the patch will extend over the ogive of the bullet far enough so that no lead will contact the barrel. This should not be over-done however. If the patch covers too much of the ogive the rifling will not shred the entire patch and some of the patch may cling to the bullet when the bullet leaves the barrel. This can harm accuracy. If you know the groove diameter of the barrel you can set your micrometer to that dimension, then hold the bullet nose against the mike's anvils. Turn the bullet while lightly pressing it against the anvils. This will make a mark on the bullet nose. The patch should extend about 1/32 of an inch beyond this mark. This can be adjusted as you gain experience but is a good starting place.
The patch will also need to extend beyond the base of the bullet. The traditional method is to make the patch long enough so that you can easily hold the end of the patch and twist it into a tail. If the bullet is to be used with a card wad the bullet is usually made with a cup base. The tail of the patch is tucked neatly into the cavity in the base of the bullet to prevent the card wad from driving the tail into the bullet base and distorting the base. Another method is to make the tail as usual but then cut the tail off once it has dried. This has the advantage of allowing the patch to be tightened onto the bullet by twisting the patch tail. Then removing the tail eliminates the problem of the tail damaging the base on firing. If no card wad is used then there is no problem to worry about.
I usually use a flat base bullet. In this case you could make the patch width long enough to make the tail and then cut the tail off if a card wad is used. I simply shorten the patch width and fold the patch over the bullet base. Then I lightly press the bullet, base down, on the patch board and give the bullet a turn in the direction of the patch angle. This flattens the patch on the bullet base and tightens it some on the bullet. I don't try to cover the entire base of the bullet with the patch. There is about one-third of the center of the base exposed. I almost always used a card wad under the bullet but even without the wad leaving a little of the base exposed doesn't hurt anything.

The length of the patch can be determined by using basic math but an easier way is to cut a strip of patch paper that is long enough to cover the bullet with three wraps or more. Wrap the dry paper onto the bullet tightly. While holding the paper on the bullet take a razor blade or razor knife and cut into the paper at the bottom of the bullet. Make the cut deep enough so that all the layers of the paper are cut. Then remove the paper and gently straighten it out. The distance between three cuts on the paper is the length of the patch. However the damp patch will stretch a little as it is rolled onto the bullet so the patch length needs to be shortened about 1/32 of an inch. Properly applied the damp patch will have two wraps on the bullet with the ends of the patch almost but not quite meeting. While this might sound difficult to do it really isn't. It is better to have the patch a little too short than too long though.

Once the patched bullets are dry they can be handled and usually are lubricated before loading. I lube them just before loading but it could be done before hand if the bullets are stored in a container that will keep them dust free. As to the type of lube used the old stand-by is a roughly 50-50 mix of beeswax and petroleum jelly (Vaseline). Adjust this until you have a soft but not runny lube, then wipe a little of the lube onto the patch. I go by the appearance of the patch. As you apply the lube the patch will darken some. When the patch has a uniform color enough lube has been applied. Wipe the lube on in the direction the patch is wrapped to keep from unwrapping the patch.

It is possible to use the bullets without lubing the patch but try the lubing them first. Generally this will give better results.

The above is a cut and paste from RCE.Co

http://www.rceco.com/techtalk.htm#paper

The bore diameter on most of the modern 404 barrels is .411 inches and the groove diameter is .423 inches. That was the original spec for the Krupp barrels used by Mauser for the original Jeffery.



There is therefore technically no such thing as a commercial .423 bore, the 404 is a 411 bore so you should be asking can you shoot a 416 from a 411 bore as bore is defined as land to land diameter



The modern ( recent) 404 bullet is designated a 423 caliber whilst in fact the bullet diameter from get go was actually a .422 caliber right up to last manufacture by ICI in the early 70's.



It was DWM and later RWS who, based on the Mauser barrel specs made bullets as .423. DWM first made ammo for the 404 from 1926 and RWS from the 1970's and from there the modern american bullet makers followed suit. Up to 1926 Mauser used Eley ammo (.422 cal) to proof and shoot their 404 rifles.



So in short a 416 bullet will not "rattle" but will likely not seal properly especially if it's of the monometal variety.

Good morning, George.

Good grief, I sure wouldn't hang anything important on this proposal, either. It would be the same sort of thing as these people who plan a major expedition after some critter-or-other and then complain about the COST of the bullets, if contemplating say, Partitions, Bear Claws, North Forks or whatever versus garden-variety Sierras or Hornadys. Penny wise, pound foolish in SPADES!

Nope, I took the question more as one of rather idle curiosity, maybe asked over a late-night glass of adult beverage..."Hmmm....I WONDER if this just might..????" After all, how many of us have the dies for BOTH cartridges on our benches? Not many, I'd wager. Since I happen to have the items needed to check it out, that's what I'm going to do. We also have to remember that in the case of the .404, bullets are NOT all that easy to come by, and almost always have to be ordered-in from some supplier.

I enjoy getting away on these off-trail handloading excursions, as long as they can be approached safely.

Depending on the true bore diameter (and the amount of fluctuation), it might work passably well, but I certainly wouldn't want to stake a high-dollar hunt on such antics.

Paper-patching might not work either at these velocities.

I'd consider it false economy to use .416" bullets in a .423" bore; it is equivalent to using .277" bullets in a .280 Remington.

George

Several years ago at the range a bloke was shooting a 270 and bullets were keyholing. Beleive it or not, but Winchester had chambered a 7mm barrel for 270.

I have seen 308 bullets fired plenty of times through SMLEs and more often than not the results are terrible.

Mike

Gentlemen,

A few years ago, I was in teh process of trying to load some "funny" ammo for Walter.

He was a Blaser R93 in 7x64 Brenneke.

My first attempt was to load .277 caliber bullets in hsi rifle.

I did that and shot them. They all hit the target a couple of inches to the left of my point of aim, and the group was about 2.5 inches!!?

As that experimnt was an utter failure, I thought drastic measures are called for.

The bullet I was using were Nosler Partition - these are the ones he uses for hunting. So I drilled out different amount of lead from the rear of the bullets.

I think the 150 grain bullets ended up varying in weight from about 100+ to 135.

The trick worked like a chargem.

As we gave him these rounds to sight his rifle with first day we got to Africa. First bullet hit the target box at the top left corner. Second hit it at the bottom left corner, the third bullet hit the ground half way to the target!

WE all had our fun, as poor old Walter was most upset!