I've been looking at these old shooters and have a few questions:

.577 Snider Enfield--
What I think I know:
Fires a .577" lead bullet
Most rifles are 'older than sin'
Have seen both brass AND paper cases

577/.450 Martini Henry--
What I think I know:
Fires a .458" bullet
Most rifles are 'older than sin'
Some rifles have been converted to .303 British

I'm more interested in the .577 Snider but have question regarding both.
1) Smokeless or BP?
2) Are these rifles 'safe' anymore?
3) What are their respective MV for what grain bullets?
4) Can these shoot copper jacketed bullets?
5) Does anyone have firsthand experience with either one?
6) -for the Snider- Can I shoot .577" 890gr RN cast bullets also or just the .577" 555gr HBFP cast bullets?

I think either would be a fun 'shooter' but I need more info first, thanks.

You have picked a pair of classics to inquire about sir! I have more experience with the Snider than the Martini-Henry. The Snider I had was a Mark III. These had an additional safety catch on the thumb block and the barrels were made of steel. They also were made new, rather than converted, unlike the earlier Mark I and II. I shot both black and smokeless in mine, with 30 grains of XMP5744 giving just under 1,000 fps with the RCBS .590 HB minie. Yes, .590. If you try to make a Snider shoot with a garden-variety .577-.578 bullet, you will be in for grave disappointment in the accuracy department; many uninformed Snider shooters are. I used cases and dies from NDFS in Britain, but that source is drying up, as James Goodwin is retiring soon. I got the XMP load from the folks at Acccurate Arms, and it was safe, pleasant and accurate in my old Mark III. This round is surprisingly pleasant to shoot--to me, milder than a BP-loaded Trapdoor in .45-70 with 500-grain M1882 bullet. Apparently, many British cavalrymen were loathe to give up their Sniders for Martini Henrys, especially after they had shot the latter as the recoil is worse by far, even if the trajectory is flatter. You can get .577 cases from Bertram and Ballard, and dies from CH4D -- but check on whether they will work in a standard 7/8X14 reloading press thread. The NDFS dies do.
Very little sizing is required, so you might be able to make do without a spendy set of dies, once you have cases formed to your rifle's chamber.
The .577-450 is more problematical. Others will know the details better than I, but I believe the Marks I and II had a more "normal chamber" and will do reasonably well with a .459-.460 bullets. The later marks, I believe, had a larger bore diameter and a much larger neck, meaning that the cases expand unmercifully upon firing and have to be sized down drastically, requiring annealing and other ministrations. Also, the heavily bottlenecked case must be loaded with a lot of powder (and some use a lot of filler, which generally gives me the creeps) to bring the powder charge up into the neck in contact with wads, lube and bullet base.
I love the history of both of these fine guns, but forced to choose one, I would pick a nice Mark III Snider with a 1:48 twist barrel and get the right bullet mould, and never look back.
Good luck, sir; there is glory in these two old rounds.

BMG, another supplier of brass and dies that you might want to check out is Sykes, Jenkinson in British Columbia. With your dollar at half the amount of ours, they might save you some cash. You can reach them at 250-442-5718.
I use to have a 450-577 in a Alexander Henry in the form of a military rifle from Australia. It was a joy to shoot but I sold it just months befor I really knew what I had. I'm sure I'm not the only one who's done that. Have fun with that classic...Bob

[This message has been edited by magua (edited 11-01-2001).]

Bill, or anyone with 577 snyder,

I picked up a 577 snyder at a local gunshop about a year ago. They were selling it as a single shot muzzleloading shotgun! (didn't know what they had). I don't know much about it, but now I am curious. I don't think mine is typical to what you guys have. It says right on the reciever "577 Snyder", the details are from memory, as I don't have it in front of me. It is a breach loader, just like the pictures I've seen of them, with exposed hammer and offset firing pin (I think-from memory), but it is a smooth bore, no rifling, not even faint rifling, and the barrel seems a little "thin", it looks like a smoothbore musket. It's not in the greatest shape, but appears mechanically sound and shootable. Are there smooth bore versions of the Snyder? Or do I have something oddball/messed with or hacked up? I had thought it was a Russian export Snyder, but now I'm not sure. The sights look wrong on it, and cobbled up, the front sight is offset to the side a little (looks like it was whacked in shipping or whatever). And the crown has a ding in it, can be recut I'm sure. What the h*ll do I have? I got it really cheap, but now I'm wondering...did I screw myself?

Big Bores,
Many Sniders were converted to shotguns, and around here are called "Zulus". There seem to be about as many variations as there are guns.
They were said to be issued to native troops and foragers.
Mine is 12 ga.
Regards from Darkest California,
Ross

Ross,

That is possible I guess, mine wouldn't even feed a standard 2 3/4 20 ga. shell. The loading port area is too short for the unfired shell to slip into the breach, plus the breach opening is too small in diameter. Also at the muzzle end it is .583 inch just inside the crown area (like I said, the crown got whacked). The barrel thickness at the muzzle end is .125 inch. The rear breech opening in the action roughly meas .645 inch, very difficult to meas with just a dial caliper though. The barrel is stamped "FOR BALL" and "B P" on the left side just forward of the chamber. It is a center firing pin with offset hammer. The underside of the loading gate is stamped "B B" and the top side of the loading gate is stamped "SNIDER PATENT" above and below what looks like an arrow going through "S" on it's side. It has a short plain walnut stock, with 1 barrel band, and 2 crossbolts at the reciever. It has definately been used and is not very pretty, but no rust on it anywhere, and looks like original finish (or very old refinish), as it is patina all over it. How close or far from a real Snider is it? If it's a rebuilt "Zulu", what the heck did they fire out of it? Thanks.

Bigbores
If memory serves me the .577 snider was a conversion on the .577 Enfield musket used by British. The snider conversion was the breach block, with offset firing pin and a hinge on the left side on the rifle (I think). The snider converted rifle was supposed to be a stop gap rifle to fill a void until a proper breach loader was developed (the martini henry). The last one I saw was on my wife's uncle's wall but unfortunatly the breach block has been broken. I think I have a article on them in a Aussie gun mag. If you would like a copy let me know and try to find it and send it to you.
Bakes

Hi, Bigbores:
FWIW, the 3 .577 Snider cartridges in my collection measure .661-.663" just above the rim. Interestingly, a Fiocchi 24 gauge shell measures .656" there. Overall length of the unfired 24 gauge is 2.375". Standard bore diameter for the 24 gauge is .580". I'd be highly inclined to try a 24 gauge shell in your gun.

Bye
Jack

[This message has been edited by JackM (edited 11-04-2001).]

BigBores,
If you need a 24 Ga. MT case I'll be happy to send you one to try in your gun.
Regards from Darkest California,
Ross

There is actually a message forum devoted to the Snider-Enfield, and another to the Martini-Henry.

Reloading is a major topic of discussion, and there are people who post often who make bullet molds and dies, and who know quite a bit about case forming.

Here are the URLs:

Snider-Enfield Forum:
http://www.gunandknife.com/cgi-bin/forums/enfsniderconfig.pl

Martini-Henry Collectors Forum:
http://www.gunandknife.com/cgi-bin/forums/martiniconfig.pl