Although I don't own a .458 Winchester Magnum, YET, I have read accounts of those that do. In his article "The Danger of Elephant Hunting" by Jim Carmichel, Shooting Editor Outdoor Life Magazine wrote that "When Winchester announced its .458 Magnum in 1956, it effectively ended the reign of the great British Nitro calibers." Not to bad for a cartridge that is supposed to have a bad reputation.

Jim Carmichel goes on to write that "All of the elephants I've taken were with a do-it-yourself rifle I put together back in my college days-when hunting elephants was only a dream-and .458 Winchester Magnum ammo that I handloaded with 500-grain Hornady steel-jacketed bullets. The reason for using steel-jacketed "solids" is so the bullet will penetrate several inches of an elephant's thick, honeycombed skull without deforming or coming apart." If the .458 Winchester Magnum will do this consistently, what more could a hunter need or want?

John Kingsley-Heath, outfitter and white hunter, Professional Hunter, was, from what Jack O'Connor wrote, instrumental in helping Winchester with the testing of the .458 Winchester Magnum and which became a favorite of John's after the testing. Lionel Palmer, probably one of, if not the greatest of modern day lion hunters liked and used the .458 Winchester Magnum. If professional hunters like these and others put their trust in
the .458 Winchester Magnum why are they so wrong? I'm not questioning that the .458 Winchester Magnum has a bad name, I would like to know who, how and why it got the bad name after it has worked for so many. Can anyone here enlighten me? Lawdog

I think it didn't/hasn't ever lived up to its velocity claims...And original factory loads were so heavily compressed that the powder clumped up and didn't burn correctly causing further problems.

My next Mauser will be made into a .458 as my intro into the Big Bore Realm

Mike

[ 05-02-2003, 06:31: Message edited by: ready_on_the_right ]

/

Yep-It was done in by .35 inch of brass not there
because m-f Winchester was to lazy to open bottom of their actions to hold a longer case.Same stupid laziness affected their whole operation.That lost
them their reputation and independence as a
economically viable company.That's why they are owned by a conglomerate.What they lost Weatherby
gained in 45 cal big bore cartridges..What they lost in bolt rifle sales Ruger got most.If Ruger
pushes the Lott cartridge, their reputation will soar and they will double bolt rifle sales in 10
years.If they push it hard in 10 years 80% of
over 40 cal will be on Rugers.Ed.

Lawdog-Gary: The 458 will in a 24 inch barrel do slightly over 2100 with the right powders without problems.
The 458 also makes a great pistol round in an Encore or XP-100. 14 inch velocities will only be 7 to 8 percent below a 24 inch rifle.
This makes a interesting project to play with plus it has a lot of power.
Alot of people have an attitude of if something or someone does a wrong in the past they condemn it or them forever without any regard of maybe the person or thing ever redeeming itself.
Good thing the Lord doesn't do that or we all would need coal scoops put in our caskets when we die.
You will find many people talk out of both sides of their mouths. They will down a cartridge as being a poor choice for power then turn around a few day later and recommend a cartridge with less power as perfectly alright. As witness the 45/70 debate that has been on here before.
One staunch 45/70 basher will condemn it then turn around and say a smaller less powerful cartridge is alright for buffalo and then support the Taylor KOV's when the KOV for the 45/70 is far greater than the smaller cartridge.
Which is it anyway?
What is your opinion on the subject since you brought it up about the 458 Mag

/

The limited performance of the .458 WinMag has achieved urban myth status today. While the cartridge does not make the energy of a .458 Lott, .450 Dakota, or .458 Weatherby, it is suitable as a dangerous game cartridge. It has killed piles of elephants and buff to prove it.

HOWEVER, it�s limited performance generates little margin for error. Broadside shots on buff and head shots on ele with an appropriate solid is desirable. Using the .458 WinMag to punch through heavy bone or quartering shots quickly become more problematic.

Yes there are many cartridges which generate more energy, however, the .458 WinMag has a place in dangerous game hunting.

Zero Drift,

Yes there are many cartridges which generate more energy, however, the .458 WinMag has a place in dangerous game hunting.[/QUOTE]

Yes with proper handloads.

ALF: My astute buddy I was not getting into the realm of rehashing the 45/70 debate. I was merely stating a fact concerning the mouth being closed in the middle and flopping on both sides.
Anyone who says they don't do it at times to me is full of poop like the christmas turkey whether it is me, or you, or anyone else.
The 458 can be loaded safely to slightly over 2100 with safe pressures which no less an authority as Mr Atkinson has said is alright velocitywise.
I an not arguing with you at all and I am not trying to bring up the 45/70 debate so please don't try to stir it up yourself okay.
If one believes in the Taylor KOV he either does or doesn't.
Also since we cannot tell the tone of what a poster is writing to cover all bases if you meant to be a butthole then you can kiss my rosey behind and if you didn't I think that you are a fine man and would be proud to call you buddy and the same goes for me if I meant to be a butthole I can kiss your rosey behind too and if I didn't I would like for you to call me buddy.

I believe that *people* had problems with 458 win ammo, however, bullets just sticking under the hide of elephants and other DG is not a function of 500 grain bullets at 1900 fps. Besides the 404 jeff, the 458 win mag has probably killed more DG than any other caliber over 40.

Piles of animals to prove it??, then that makes the 222 a deer rifle. C'mon Zero you know that!

The facts are that the 458 is a poorly designed cartridge and their are relms of documented failures to proove it, both from professional hunters culling teams and parks and wildlife, and tons of documentation in magazines, surly where there is that much smoke, there is fire.

As to handloading it, once again you get into compaction problems to get the velocity you need, albiet to a somewhat lesser degree than the factory had...

The new enhanced 458 Win ammo is presently giving the same old problems in Africa according to Man Magnum magazine, and as before the ugly fact of a lack of powder capacity flows to the top...

Some refuse to face the fact, why I don't know..I would hunt Buffalo with a 458 Win but I would stick with a 500 gr. bullet at 1900 to 2000 FPS or I would opt for a 450 monolithic bullet at 2100 FPS...

My solution to the problem was a 404 or 416, why bother with a suspecious caliber. The 458 Lott conversion or the 458 3" is really gaining popularity in Africa among the PH's and that is a fact...I do believe the Lott is a real sure nuff elephant gun.

But, all this is opinion and for those unconvienced souls who stand on the effectiveness of the standard 458 Win, then have at it, but be forewarned that we all must live or die with our decisions, I always liked to have the edge in my favor.

To be honest, I think of the 458 Win as a 38 special on steroids. The 458 win is a .38 special when compared to a 458 Lott or the 450 Ackley. There is no doubt it "Can" get the job done on African game, but there are much better choices. As Ray and others have shown, the 450/400 with 400 gr bullets at 2100 fps has been plenty for Buffalo for about 100 yrs now and the 458 Win clearly has more power than that. A buff hit properly usually just runs off and dies! Hopefully in the other direction! Personally, I'd prefer the more " decisive" effect of a.600 OK/ 585 NYATI/ 500 A2 class weopon. With that said, the majority of my Buffalo experience has been with the .416 Rigby and I have nothing to complain about!
Remember, the 458 win and 458 lOTT have the advantage that they require only Long Actions and can be put in stocks that are a delight to carry and use, as compared to the much heavier DGR's on magnum actions.-Rob

[ 05-02-2003, 19:20: Message edited by: Robgunbuilder ]

I continually find it most humorous that 75 to 150 fps makes such a night and day difference in the minds of so many. This hype continues to crack me up every time I read it.

Ray - Give me a small break. Since when did you start listening to the miscellaneous rumblings of gun magazine writers? The reams of culling reports were generated long ago. The guys muffing a shot with a .458 WinMag would be muffing the same shot with a more powerful cartridge, so I place little stock in hunting reports.

With modern powders and bullets, the .458 WinMag is the best it has ever been. You can easily achieve 2150 fps with a 500 gr bullet from a 24" tube. Since when does this not work on buff and ele? Granted, it is not the absolute best dangerous game cartridge available (if there is such an thing), however, it can and does get the job done. It certainly does not provide you with the margin of error or flexibility of a .450 Dakota, .416 Rigby, or your magical .404J, however, it continues to be used by many hunters and continues to drop a large number of buff and ele each year.

I have used the .458 WinMag in the field with good results. However, I have in fact moved on to the .450 Dakota, .416 Rigby, and .416 Dakota as my go to guns on heavy animals. The extra power is noticeable and provides me with more flexibility in taking quartering shots where penetration is paramount.

ZeroDrift & Gustavo--If they used long barrel rifles and right powder, they'd have decent velocities.But most listen to gun writers and haggle barrels back 4 to 6 inches.So factory loads reach 1900 fps if your lucky with these guns.Winchester started out on wrong foot with this case.There were long magnum wildcats they could have set up,which writers and hunters wanted. All magazine reading gun nuts wanted.And they insulted us!!Keith-O'Neil-Hopkins had a full
length 475 wildcat before WW2!!!Mashburn.Watts,and
others had long 458's.Ed.

I think the biggest problem with many US hunters in the whitetail mentality. That mentality is that they've harvested a handful, maybe several dozen whitetails, and a few wild hogs thrown in for good measure, and thus they believe they have enough experience to extrapolate to all animals hunted, and all hunting conditions.

The fact is, for the hunting of thick skinned dangerous game, marginal, or questional performance is not acceptable! I don't see how anyone could honestly say that the 458 win mags history, which spans 50 years, has been anything other then proof that the cartridge is marginal for use on thick skinned dangerous game. Sure, it'll work most of the time, but THAT ISN'T GOOD ENOUGH!!!

The true test of a dangerous game round isn't how it performs under ideal conditions, but how it performs day in, and day out. The fact is, the 458 win mag failed to live up to the same standards that the 404 Jeffrey, 416 Rigby, and various NE rounds of 40 cal on up established and performed to.

I do have one question for ALF though, was there a full length belted 45 round that predated the 450 Watts?

[ 05-02-2003, 22:29: Message edited by: Paul H ]

PAUL H: The biggest problem with this thread is that properly loaded the 458 will achieve slightly over 2100 from 24 inches.
Now none of us are saying there isn't anything better BUT the 458 Lott is better than the 458 Win Mag, The 500 A-Square is better than the 458 Lott, The 577 Nitro is better than the 500 A- Square and the 600 Nitro is better than the 577 Nitro etc. etc. There is no where to go with this discussion but to point out there are "authorities on here that will belittle some cartridges while extolling the virtues of other that have less Taylor KOV when the cartridges that were run down have a much higher Taylor KOV that the cartridge that were uplifted.
No one will knock you for wanting the most edge you can have but where does the shooter place in all this?
Can everyone handle the added recoil? Can they place the bullet in the right place? Not everyone has nerves of steel such as yourself. Maybe the 458 is for them I don't know but to bash a cartridge such as a 458 Win Mag when it will meet the bottom standard for velocity as even stated by Mr Atkinson at other times is beyond me.
Lets get a grip on things and say that the 458 Properly loaded will do it but that there are better cartridges out there for the task if one can handle them.
HAS ANYONE EVERY SAID THEAT THERE IS NO BETTER CARTRIDGE FOR BUFFALO OR ELEPHANT THAN THE 458 WIN MAG I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW.
I though I was going to have a fire mine this morn at a snapping turtle that looked like it had my toe in its sights. I just hope that 500 gr Hornady bullet would have done the job.
I'm just glad I didn't have my Marlin Guide Gun Loaded with 550 grainers at 1450 fps is all I can say.

Zero,
Sorry old man, I was just making conversation but consider the fact that without my imput, you would have never made that astute post..

As to your post it must be taken into account that one must take into consideration the fantastic penitrative qualities of the 450-400 when one makes reference to it, for without its magnificent SD, and ability to penitrate deeper than most all other calibers it would be a very borderline caliber.

This from 470 Mbogo is very informative on Big Bores..

Mike

I have hunted asian buffalo for several years with a .400 Jeffery, and have never found it wanting. Its actual regulating velocity with the modern equivalent of 60gr of Cordite from the 24" barrels is about 1980 fps. Actual ME is less than 3500 ftlbs. Compared with the .458 Win it is a whimp! However it was one of 'Pondoro' Taylor's favourites for elephant, probably with the 55gr 'tropical' load. Just another example of 'actual' performance being well below the advertised figures, even if only 'on paper'.

...and by the way, Ray, the published SD of a Woodleigh 400gr .411 is .338, whereas that of the 500gr .458 is .341. Pretty similar really, but the .458 actually has the edge! It should penetrate at least as well as the .450/.400 at the same velocity!

Adding to Lawdog's original point, I have read that the Govt-purchased .458 Win ammo in Zimbabwe last year was pushing the projectile out of the case during storage, after only 2 years. Does this mean that Winchester are still loading a heavily compressed charge in their factory ammo?

Marrkai,
What you say is true in therory, but in penitration test I have found the two stop about the same spot with a tiny edge going to the 450-400...

I attributed that to the smaller cross section of the 450-400 bullet as it meets less resistance...but that cross section is what makes the 458 a great killer of big animals.

If I ran the same test again I might get dramatically different results as there are so many varibles involved that this sort of testing borders on foolish...

I think the bottom line in this case is these two calibers are no. 1 and 2, in the SD ratings of all calibers, so both must be capable, and no doubt the bigger 458 is the reigning champion if pushed fast enough, that is over 2100 FPS.