I have at last received my long ordered FN solids from GS Custom.
I ordered them for my comming 577 (.585") and bulletweight is 800 grs.

But I see that the bullets are .582" diameter. I have corresponded with Gerard Schultz about this, because I wanted to make sure that no excessive flameerosion and gas cutting occurs in the barrel when using these bullets. It actually worried me a bit.. But Gerard told me to just calm down - everything is as it should be he said. The bullets are made .582" diameter on purpose, because it will " reduce barrel wall pressure, increase velocity and reduce barrel wear - and no gass cutting will take place because the copper bullet will expand the necessary amount to obturate the barrel". Sounds good. But then I wonder: Why don�t Gerard Schultz /GS Custom then make all their FN or HV bullets slightly undersice f.ex .508" for the .510" bores, .374" for the .375" bores etc etc ???

I have measured some other 577 bullets:
Woodleigh 750 grs SP : .5835
A-Square Dead Tough : .585"
A-Square Monolithic : .5845"


What do you think - will firing of the .582" GS bullets in my .585" bore be detructive to the barrel ( more wear ) ??

Answer: I don't know.

My GS .585 bullets are also a wee bit undersized. You could paper patch them if you wanted.

The irony of this is that cast lead bullets, which obturate easily, are typically 0.002" larger than bore diameter (in big bores) or else they do not shoot accurately.

in the jam with GS, i would except asking to return them for being defective would place you on a 360 month replacement schedule.

.582 would fit in my 58 cal double muzzleloader, though..

jeffe

I have been giving this a thought for a while. I ordered .585" bullets from GS Custom and not .582" bullets. I have called several barrel makers who make 577 barrels : Krieger, Border, Pac-Nor and Lothar Walther. All said that .585" was the ONLY correct groove dimension for the 577. Only exception was Lothar Walther who said that they would make .582" barrels on order..
I told this to Geoffrey Kolbe from Border Barrels in Scotland. His reply was that the .582" was incorrect and that he knew that Holland and Holland made their barrels to .585" - .5855" groovedimension.

Back to the issue: Shooting .582" bullets in a .585" bore is not good for the barrel. End of story. It is almost like shooting .505 bullets (for the Gibbs cartridge) in a 500 A-Square or Jefferey barrel.. And why should GS Custom otherwise make all their other bullets to the exact caliberdimension ??
I must conclude that it was a flaw making the bullets .582" instead of .585" in diameter. Especially when I have asked for .585" bullets. My decision is therefore to return all the bullets for being defective and I do wonder, like Jeffeosso mentioned, if that will place me on a 360 months replacement schedule.....

By the way - the reason I am so sensitive about this rifle/barrel is that it is not an of the shelf 2000 $ rifle I will be using in this caliber. With the current US-dollarrate it is a 13000 $ rifle. That�s why.

And by the way. I just measured one of the 330 grs 416 HV bullets from GS Custom. It measures .4168" over the "driving bands". Which means 0,0008" MORE than caliberspecs.
I must confess that I am a bit confused over Gerards Schultz� explanations about undersize bullets, less barrel wall pressure etc etc

Ulrik,

If you ordered .585" bullets, that is what you should have received.

Ship them back with some sort of delivery confirmation. If they cannot provide the bullets you want, get a refund, including your shipping costs.

George

Ulrik,
We do not make a .585" diameter bullet and will not do so in your case for the reasons I gave you in three or four lengthy e-mails we exchanged on this subject. The bullets are correct for your application and were custom made at 800 grains at your request. As I have said before, I have 12 years experience and development in making of drive band bullets and there are good reasons why we supplied what you received. Give me credit for having learned something about how bullets of this type should be made.

GeorgeS,
If a customer orders something from us and is misinformed about the technical aspects of what he requires, it is my responsibility to supply the right product. I have often corresponded with customers about this and give full technical reasons why I make the recommendations and deliver a product different to that which was ordered.

A good example is when 300gr 375 cal HV or FN bullets are ordered for use in a 375 H&H. They are intended for use in the 375 and 378 Weatherby and, knowingly supplying them to a customer for his use in a 375 H&H, would be irresponsible of me. There are many more examples in the 7mm and 6.5mm calibres without even getting into the .408 to .423 can of worms. The bottom line is that, in 12 years, not a single GS bullet has caused damage to a customer's firearm. We do the destructive testing in house so that the customer does not have to.

As a general comment, never paper patch any of our bullets without checking with us first. A barrel has two diameters and so do our HV and FN bullets. There are very precise tolerances involved here that should not be tampered with.

Hi Jeffe,

Ulrik- I doubt the undersized bullets will harm your bore. Accuracy may be iffy though. I have shot .308 bullets through a .312 bore rifle with only marginal accuracy versus a .312 bullet. One other thing to consider is if your reloading dies will provide enough neck tension with the .582 bullets. Have you tried to seat any and does it provide enough neck tension?-Rob

Gerard,
let me tell you this...

if I ordered .585 bullets, and i was NOT TOLD WHEN I ORDERED THEM that they could be a different diameter than what I ordered, I would call my CC company and reverse the charges...

of course, I would not buy bullets from your company, due to customer service, this being an example, if you had a shop between my house and my shop...

of course, I'll give you credit.. you manage to get bullet orders, and misfill/not fill them.


btw, Gerard, I'll give WOODLIEGH credit for 6 times your experience with making bullets... and, guess what, their 577 bullet is .584...

.003 undersized is A REJECT and you KNOW this.


so, are your .375 bullets .372? .475 bullets .472?

so, <damn, i wish I could flash my hand on the internet like my kids do>

TALK TO THE HAND THE HEAD'S NOT LISTENING

jeffe

you know, it would be actually funny as HELL to have a 585 KEYHOLE


unless the bullet was fired in anger and the the customer to gored/nailed/killed

good thinking gerard...

.308 in .311 keyholes like hell for me

jeffe

George,

Ulrik and I exchanged e-mail on the subject way before the bullets were shipped. Ulrik's unhappiness started when he talked to people about bullet and barrel sizes after his bullets were shipped. His unhappiness is caused by advice he is given by the uninformed and will continue as long as he listens to them. Once he has used them, his unhappiness will turn to joy as they will outperform anything else he could possibly use in his rifle.



Jeffe,

There is much that you do not know about making bullets. Especially our bullets. So let our customers who have actually used these "reject undersized" bullets tell you about accuracy:



The "undersized" .470" bullet at 100 yards:







The "undersized" .375 H&H bullet:



A writer for Magnum Magazine tested our claims for low speed expansion and low as well as high speed accuracy and stated:



"To test low speed expansion, I loaded a 265gr .375 bullet in front of 50.5gr S335 for a velocity of 2075fps and fired it into a wetpack from 40m. Alan Henry of Natal Gun Company witnessed the test: The perfectly expanded bullet weighed 264gr on recovery. This one will not only work well in the bushveld, it is accurate too. With the ghost-ring I could put three shots into less than an inch at 50m."



Any other bullets you would like me to quote you? Take the time to read this and realise that neither of us know everything, but I know a lot more about making bullets that perform like ours than you or anyone else does.



I could care less what other manufacturers do. I can state confidently that our HV and FN bullets will not delaminate any double rifle, or burn out the throat in short order as some other makes of bullets do.



The product that we delivered to Ulrik is correct and the proof of performance will be in the using of the bullet and not in the taking of advice based on uninformed opinion.



You make assumptions and then jump to conclusions that only prove your ignorance on this subject.

Jeffe,
I think you very eloquently put your finger on the reason why you are having difficulty with this thread.

Quote:

---

TALK TO THE HAND THE HEAD'S NOT LISTENING

jeffe

---

I have purchased GS bullets. The customer service, including emails and delivery, from Gerard, Gina, and HV Concepts has been excellent.

I have noticed in threads concerning GS Custom there seems to be a pattern. The most vocal and virulent of critics have four things in common:

A: They have never bought GS Custom bullets.
B: They have never tried them.
C: They are not planning on buying them.
D: They don't have all of the information from both sides.

What do these people really have to offer? Certainly not personal experience or results.

Theodore Roosevelt summed it up:

"It is not the critic who counts, nor the man who points out where the strong man stumbles, nor where the doer of deeds could have done them better. On the contrary, the credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena whose vision is marred by the dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up again and again; who knows the great devotions, the great entusiasms; who at best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement. However, if he filswhile daring greatly so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat."

RCG

RCG,
Your take on this is incorrect, sorry.. but welcome to the forums..

the normal post on these
1: someone complains that it takes A YEAR to get the bullets, once their credit card is charged

2: they are lied to for 10 months of that year, saying things have shipped, or a machine is broken, etc

3: when the issue is finally raised, Gerard shows his amazing customer service.

I dont NEED to drive into a wall at 75 mph, after just watchign someone else do so, to realize I would not care for the action.

So,
why don't you do a search in these forums for GS custom COMPLAINTS rather than post your opinions on them.

btw, do you support a bullet not being made to spec?
jeffe

Yes, Gerard, I did state why I am having difficulty with your perspective on this.. and, as you choose to take the rtather juvenile approach, you affirm that issue.

that you have no clue as to what customer service is.

Yet, of course, you would rather not address all the issues raised....


have a ball... as you can't make a bullet

jeffe

RCG,

You avoided a major headache when you purchased through the U.S. importer (who has since quit handling the GS Custom line).

Search all forums for 'GS Custom'; read the threads containing the posts of customers who dealt with GS Custom directly, then form your opinion.

George
P.S. A wise man learns from the mistakes of others.

I must add that I have only to date tried Gerards bullets in 416 caliber. Their 330 grs HV is extremely accurate in my rifle. 0,3 - 0,8" is the norm with almost all loads I have tried - be it light at 2500 f/s and hot at 3170 f/s (416 Wby).
Shot into wetpacks the bullets perform perfect at all tried velocities.
I like GS bullets a lot. And I like Gerard Schultz himself.I beleive he makes some of the very best bullets available. BUT they have a major problem with their delivery of bullets. That is an unfortunate fact.
I just raised this issue because I was/is honestly worried about the performance of .582" bullets in a barrel with a groovedia. of .585"....
I understand that the idea behind this bulletsize is that the bullet made of copper under pressure will expand the needed amount to tightly obturate the barrel. Sounds OK to me. But then I DO WONDER why almost all other GS bullets -be it HV or FN - are made to exact caliberspecs...??
Why are not all their bullets undersized if this is a part of their concept ??
My 416 bullets are not undersized either. The rear driving bands have a dia of .4168" and the front band around .416"...?!!!

Unfortunately my new 577 Tyrannosaur rifle is in the works and it will still take some time before it is ready for me. So I cannot do any bullet testing yet..

Another problem is neck tension as mentioned by RobGB.
The dies are, like the barrels, made for .585" bullets. Any good ideas how to better that problem ??

George & Jeffeosso:

I joined the forums a couple of months ago, but have been following AR for well over a year prior logging on. Around that time I became interested in trying GSFN solids in my .458 after reading posts by Ray Atkinson, 500 grains, and others on AR as well as articles in African Hunter, The Perfect Shot, and Rifles for Africa by Gregor Woods. Naturally, when a thread, pro or con, on GS Custom was posted, I read it. Some of the problems and concerns seemed very legitimate. Communication between parties and delivery of product, or lack there of for whatever reason, appeared to be a common denominator. Could it have been handled better? Probably. Most disputes usually can be handled better.

I was hesitant to order directly from them after reading posts from some AR members. As George said, I removed that obstacle by ordering from HV Concepts as they had my bullet in stock. They are no longer distributing, so I will have to make that decision when my inventory runs out. It does seem that Ray Atkinson, 500 grains and others have had relatively little or no problems when ordering direct, so that is encouraging for the future. It also appears that Gerard and Gina are making an effort to address the past problems and are developing controls and procedures to make ordering and delivery more efficient. From my limited experience, I will give them the benefit of the doubt.

The bottom line for me is that I choose to use their excellent design of solids in my rifle. I also hope that a US distributor of some type can be re-established and orders can be fulfilled on a timely basis. I am not being naive. If it is not possible for me to obtain bullets from them in a timely mannner, I will look elsewhere. I received an email from Ty at Barnes that they are researching a monolithic solid with driving bands and a flat meplat. North Fork is an option as well. As George said, a wise man learns from the mistakes others.

This site is an excellent tool for the sharing of information and ideas. Debate is a good thing but when it degrades to personal attacks, I don't believe any party benefits. How about those troll wars of the past? Good posters were dragged down to the trolls levels. Often times, we don't know the full details of the dispute. I believe that if any party brings a dispute to the forum, then ALL correspondence from ALL parties, PM's and emails, should be made available. Otherwise it is a he said/she said situation and no one benefits.

This is a great site with knowledgeable members sharing a wealth of information. I look forward to my AR visits.

Thanks Jeffeosso and George for your thoughts. Take care guys.

RCG

I am one of the people who had significant difficulty with a GS order back in 2001. It was eventually made right with a bonus to boot.

GS has changed their ordering/payment procedure since then. Now you do not get charged until the bullets ship.

Also, they have put Gina directly in charge of all shipments and shipment tracking. It is all very organized now.

Recently I ordered some more GS bullets direct. The ones that were in stock arrived at my door in only a month. I am looking forward to the others once they are manufactured.

Unfortunately, the US distributor of GS Bullets is going out of the business, so everyone will need to order direct unless some other company decides to carry the bullets. I mentioned it to Huntingtons one time, but they did not seem interested. Maybe if enough people mention it they would consider carrying GS' product.

I contacted Huntington's as 500 Grains did. They responded that they are familar with GS Custom but did not have many calls for them at this time. He then mentioned a similar bullet design made in France. Sound familiar to anyone? I have heard of a "Super Penetrator" but thought it is made in Germany on a limited basis.

Perhaps if others who are interested in this bullet contact them, they might consider it. www.huntingtons.com

RCG

The "expansion" of the bullet, makes me wonder about the metallic composition of the bullet. Wouldn't a softer solid compromise the penetration of the bullet?

It's kind of frustrating. Of course Huntingtons does not get much call for GS bullet - they are not on Huntingtons website or in their catalog. That's kind of like the Chevy dealer reporting that not many people ask him for Mercedes, so he sees no reason to carry them.

Aaaaaarrrrgh!

Gentlemen



Here are two bullets that might be of interest. It seems like both are made in France I have not tried any of these bullets, perhaps there is an member who have?



http://www.roc-import.com/gb/gpa/index.php



http://www.fipbullet.com/



Cheers

/ JOHAN

Insufficient neck tension can be a big problem with custom rifles. If the bullets are .003 undersize, depending on the dies and how they were made as well as the case neck thickness, this can be more than enough to result in poor or no neck tension. This is a major problem for basically custom cartridges like the T-Rex, 585 Nyati etc. You can still crimp the bullets in place, but they will rotate in the cases and your dependent on a full charge of powder and a puny crimp to hold them in place. Certainly not a good thing for a DGR cartridge I would think. Thank god for minute of Buffalo accuracy as thats what you'll get most likely! Given that the die makes usually don't use the reamer that was used to chamber the rifle, you can get lots and lots of variability. Not to mention the custom case makers like Horneber and BERTRAM who often produce pretty thin walled brass( Nyati brass varies from .009-.013 in the same piece of brass). The results are stacked dimensions that usually don't work in your favor. Thus, I'd have to say that unless I absolutely knew that .003 undersize bullets would work with my dies and cases and rifle, I'd reject accepting those bullets. In 30 years of gun building I've learned some things too.-Rob

FIP bullet:



ROC bullet: