What .500 cartridge for a Mauser 98?

02 October 2009, 21:10

500N

quote:
Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:

This is a classic cartridge that Suhler specifically designed to fit the 98...at that time is was the most powerful African ctg. available, and still packs more punch than the 505Gibbs, 458 Lott, 500 Nitro and comes within a squeak of the mighty 600 Nitro.

And you really think an animal is going to notice ?

Animals hit with 500 Nitro, 505 Gibbs in the same spot, same bullet, same velocity
all fall over dead.

The difference between a 505 Gibbs and a 500 Jeffrey isn't that much.

02 October 2009, 21:40

SGButton

Jeffeosso,
You have a PM.
Steve

"There is a bloody brave little animal called the honey badger in Africa. It may be the meanest animal in the world. It kills for malice and for sport, and it does not go for the jugular-it goes straight for the groin. It has a hell of a lot in common with the modern American woman."
Robert Ruark-The Honey Badger
SGB7x57@Gmail.com
360-918-8283
NRA Life Member
SCI Life Member
WANT TO RETURN TO AFRICA CLUB Life Member

02 October 2009, 22:27

Dave Bush

quote:
Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:
jeffeosso: Just to set the record stgraight: I looked over Steve's shoulder, making occasional comments while he was converting a 1909 to 500 Jeff.

Yes...feeds in any position including upside down.

This mythical "feeding problem" crops up continuously on AR.

The single stack is also GREAT..but makes for a very deep, clumsy stock line. When we (SMP) designed the 500 Jeff box, we made it no deeper than our 300H&H box..nice stock line and no need for the extra long trigger assembly.

This is a classic cartridge that Suhler specifically designed to fit the 98...at that time is was the most powerful African ctg. available, and still packs more punch than the 505Gibbs, 458 Lott, 500 Nitro and comes within a squeak of the mighty 600 Nitro.

Dave
DRSS
Chapuis 9.3X74
Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL
Krieghoff 500/.416 NE
Krieghoff 500 NE

"Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer"

"If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition).

02 October 2009, 23:31

Scrollcutter

Comparing the 500 Jeff and 505 Gibbs seems a bit unfair to me. The 505 is way underloaded in comparison to the 500 Jeff.

I don't think the 500 Jeff can be loaded much hotter that factory stuff...factory 505 isn't even close to it's potential. Not that the extra power is needed. I like the idea of shooting low pressure rounds though.

The "real" appeal for the 500 Jeff. is putting it in a standard Mauser. The 505 takes a substantial action to house it.

02 October 2009, 23:41

Dave Bush

Scrollcutter:

You are simply incorrect. While the .500 Jeffery does indeed function at higher pressures than the .505 Gibbs, it is by no means a high pressure cartridge and can be loaded much, much hotter. For example, see the loads in the following article:

http://www.realguns.com/archives/157.htm

However, I agree with you that I don't think there is a great deal to be gained by loading it to it's full potential.

02 October 2009, 23:59

jeffeosso

quote:
Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:

This mythical "feeding problem" crops up continuously on AR.

Duane,
You are a master craftsman and i would expect any thing you touch to look and function flawlessly. You are of that select group that could do it, or teach someone to do it.

That doesn't preclude the rest of us less gifted than yourself, from having trouble.

that YOU are awesome is without a doubt. That 99.99% of all other smiths aren't at your skill level is without a doubt.

that most other pepole HACK the job is also without doubt.

of course, $$$ follows skill.

03 October 2009, 00:01

jeffeosso

Dave
You still haven't answered the question nor taken Steve's feedback that the 500 is better on an m98 than a magnum.

Look, the guys that have done it are discussing and cussting it. The guys that just pay for the work REALLY don't have a basis for talking about how tough it is.

quote:
Originally posted by Dave Bush:
quote:
Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:
jeffeosso: Just to set the record stgraight: I looked over Steve's shoulder, making occasional comments while he was converting a 1909 to 500 Jeff.

Yes...feeds in any position including upside down.

This mythical "feeding problem" crops up continuously on AR.

The single stack is also GREAT..but makes for a very deep, clumsy stock line. When we (SMP) designed the 500 Jeff box, we made it no deeper than our 300H&H box..nice stock line and no need for the extra long trigger assembly.

This is a classic cartridge that Suhler specifically designed to fit the 98...at that time is was the most powerful African ctg. available, and still packs more punch than the 505Gibbs, 458 Lott, 500 Nitro and comes within a squeak of the mighty 600 Nitro.

+1

03 October 2009, 01:13

Scrollcutter

quote:
Scrollcutter:

You are simply incorrect. While the .500 Jeffery does indeed function at higher pressures than the .505 Gibbs, it is by no means a high pressure cartridge and can be loaded much, much hotter. For example, see the loads in the following article:

OK. I'm not knocking the 500 Jeff. one little bit. That said, load both to the max and see which is snortiest. Case capacity always wins.

I've shot both and own one. Believe me, they have enough power...as is.

03 October 2009, 01:23

SGButton

Would like to set somethings straight. What I have said is you can get a 500 Jeffery to feed in a standard 98 if one is careful and takes their time. Yes it would be easier in a mag lenth action but it is not necessary. If you want to build a 500 Jeffery on a Mauser Banner 98 it is no problem. If the people you talk to say it is, send it to me and I will get the job done. To quote Pierre vander Walt "FEEDING PROBLEMS DO NOT ORIGINATE FROM CARTRIDGE DESIGN BUT FROM SLOPPY WORKMANSHIP".

03 October 2009, 01:53

500N

quote:
Originally posted by Scrollcutter:
quote:
Scrollcutter:

You are simply incorrect. While the .500 Jeffery does indeed function at higher pressures than the .505 Gibbs, it is by no means a high pressure cartridge and can be loaded much, much hotter. For example, see the loads in the following article:

OK. I'm not knocking the 500 Jeff. one little bit. That said, load both to the max and see which is snortiest. Case capacity always wins.

I've shot both and own one. Believe me, they have enough power...as is.

Well, good to see some common sense coming back in.

I also own a 500J,a 505 Gibbs and a couple of 500 Nitro's.

At the end of the day, they all work at factory loads, they can all be beefed up
if that is what people desire.

I do agree with the comment about the 500J in the Standard Mauser 98.

Having seen a few cUSTOM 500J's built here that were copied from an Original Schuler
plus some that were copies of the copies by different gunsmiths, ALL of which feed fine,
"FEEDING PROBLEMS DO NOT ORIGINATE FROM CARTRIDGE DESIGN BUT FROM SLOPPY WORKMANSHIP"
is a very true statement.

03 October 2009, 02:37

Duane Wiebe

quote:
Originally posted by 500N:
quote:
Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:

This is a classic cartridge that Suhler specifically designed to fit the 98...at that time is was the most powerful African ctg. available, and still packs more punch than the 505Gibbs, 458 Lott, 500 Nitro and comes within a squeak of the mighty 600 Nitro.

And you really think an animal is going to notice ?

Animals hit with 500 Nitro, 505 Gibbs in the same spot, same bullet, same velocity
all fall over dead.

The difference between a 505 Gibbs and a 500 Jeffrey isn't that much.

The same could be said about the 243 and 6mm Rem...the point?

The big difference btwn 505 and 500 is you need a giant action for the 505.

03 October 2009, 03:08

500N

Duane

Read the post above yours, I acknowledge that point
as a positive for the 500 Jeff and it is a big positive.

I have an Original Magnum Mauser 505 Gibbs and a Custom
500 Jeff, I know what the difference is in the field.

03 October 2009, 23:09

Michael Robinson

Some of you guys have forgotten more about gunsmithing than I will ever know.

But way more than one .500 Jeffery rifle I have seen or heard tell of has had feeding problems - including the rifle that led to the near death experience I posted above.

IMHO, the .500 Jeffery is the worst designed of all of the .500 class cartridges. All else being equal, I would take a .505 Gibbs over a .500 Jeffery any day.

Or my .500 A-Square in preference to either.

It's a testament to their skills that "alchemist-class" gunsmiths can make the Jeffery round feed through a standard length Mauser '98 action. But why bother? Choose a better cartridge in the first place and avoid the pain.

And while we're on action length, I don't see that the standard Mauser action length of a .500 Jeffery gives any advantage to the Jeffery round at all.

When you get to the power and recoil levels generated by .500 class cartridges, the greater strength and weight of a rifle with a magnum length action gets the advantage, IMHO.

And please don't tell me that an extra fraction of an inch of bolt travel makes any difference. I have way too much experience with bolt rifles of a wide range of action lengths to buy that old canard.

Anyway, that's my take on it. Not that anyone asked.

03 October 2009, 23:40

Dave Bush

quote:
Originally posted by mrlexma:

"But way more than one .500 Jeffery rifle I have seen or heard tell of has had feeding problems - including the rifle that led to the near death experience I posted above."

Okay MR, I want specifics. Give us the name of the guy who had this "feeding" problem and tell us exactly the names of the guys who had the feeding problems that YOU HAVE PERSONALLY SEEN.

"IMHO, the .500 Jeffery is the worst designed of all of the .500 class cartridges."

That right... it your OPINION!

"It's a testament to their skills that "alchemist-class" gunsmiths can make the Jeffery round feed through a standard length Mauser '98 action. But why bother? Choose a better cartridge in the first place and avoid the pain."

03 October 2009, 23:52

Duane Wiebe

Well, you can't blame any cartridge design for feeding problems.

I'll bet the guy with the "warning shot" short cycled...not that he' admit it!

Action length! You can't get a 505 in a standard length action...You need a longer action and they are not exactly growing on trees, and they're pretty spendy.

The 500 Jeff magnificently fills the bill any way you look at it.

To each his own.

04 October 2009, 02:53

Scrollcutter

quote:
The 500 Jeff magnificently fills the bill any way you look at it.

Most definitely.

Not an oversized case, more than enough poop and fits a 98...what could be better. Add to that, it's a commercial cartridge. Not some Johnny come lately. Hehe

Am I a romantic, or an idiot. Nvm, don't answer that...plz.

04 October 2009, 06:18

RIP

The 500 Jeffery is seriously flawed.
mrlexma is absolutely correct.
Do not tempt fate with a severely rebated rim and a too short neck, and a fatter than needed case body.
Anyone who thinks that the 500 Jeffery is a good idea simply has a personal agenda,
a vested interest,
or their head up their nostalgia!

Best cartridge for a standard M98?
That would have to be Mr. Smith's 500AR.
It is an excellent improvement over the 500 Van Horn Express.
When Gil did it he had to turn the belt off the Wby brass because .416 Rigby brass was almost as rare as dodo bird eggs.

The 500 AR uses the specs of readily available Rigby case head,
instead of Weatherby with the belt turned off.
It has an adequate neck length and no rebate.
It must be very similar to the fabled 50 Lapua heard of here nearly a decade ago.
Love that 20-degree shoulder on the 500AR.
May the 500AR carry on where the 500 Van Horn left off:

From Dr. Ken Howell:

Of course, I am hardwired for the magnum length action, plentiful and cheap nowadays, easy to come by.
Start with a CZ 550 Magnum action and eventually you can have a rifle as good as any.
A magnum man never short strokes a standard M98.

I will stick with the 500A2 and the 500 Mbogo.
The 500A2 surpasses all 500 Jeffery loads,
that anyone would dare fire in a standard M98.
Ditto the 500 Mbogo, which is mine, all mine, hoohoohoohah!

04 October 2009, 06:50

Duane Wiebe

Wow...didn't know we had such and "Expert" in our midst! The 500 Jeff has been "seriously flawed" going on 82 years now.

No, I do not have my head up my ass you seem to infer and I don't have any personal agenda.

I just know damn well that you or anyone else cannot beat the 500 Jeff for what it was intended.

AND since it is such a "flawed cartridge" you would do Norma a favor to point out this "flaw" so they don't do something stupid like make it a factory loading...Opps...they already done that! You're too late to be the "hero" of the decade.

04 October 2009, 06:54

RIP

Duane:
I would not have accused you of having your head up your nostalgia, nor ass.
More like vested interest and personal agenda.

jeffeosso has beaten the 500 Jeffery for what it was intended.

Seriously unflawed for 104 years: 404 Jeffery
That one beats all bolt action DGR's for longevity
(and versatility, but that's another story).

As to Norma and the 500 Jeffery ammo: Suckers might pay good money for that stuff. Nothing ventured, nothing gained!

04 October 2009, 17:01

Bent Fossdal

To say that there is no such thing as designflaw about cartridges, only incompetent smiths, is a bit funny to me.
While the original jeffery is a good round, the design of the .500 AR is better.
And I think the .500 Jeffery would have been a much more common round if it had looked like the .500 AR.
But most people want a classic for Africa,so the Jeffery will stay with us as long as people have money for it. Together with other ridiculous things like H&H's side-scopemount, WR's frontsights, rear-sights with 4 folding leaves - und so weiter...

04 October 2009, 20:41

Duane Wiebe

RIP: You're dead on about the 404. Very popular after all this time. I kind of get an insight into popularity via bottom metal sales.
LOTS of 404 boxes..probably more than 375. And... we did make a run for the 500 and sold out quickly.

Bent: I'm doing a program for the WR front sight due to high demand...guess we all don't wear the same size shoe..

That's the point!

04 October 2009, 22:16

RIP

13E

05 October 2009, 00:30

Josh A.

There is a 500 Jeffrey for sale at Champlins right now. It is one of Mr. Wiebe's custom rifles.

I could see myself taking a rifle like that to Africa.

josh

http://www.champlinarms.com/De...StyleID=2&GunID=1589

05 October 2009, 00:32

Robgunbuilder

Duane- Just curious, to what extent do you re-heat treat your M98 actions that you use for the 500 jeff and do you do it yourself or send them out? -Rob

05 October 2009, 02:10

tankhunter

No offence but isnt that pretty ordinary wood for a nearly $16000.00 Rifle ? i have a Voere 22 magnum i paid $600 for and it leaves that wood for dead

05 October 2009, 02:15

shootaway

quote:
Originally posted by tankhunter:
No offence but isnt that pretty ordinary wood for a nearly $16000.00 Rifle ? i have a Voere 22 magnum i paid $600 for and it leaves that wood for dead

Good point-not that there is anything wrong with that rifle.You would probably need to pay more, for a rifle like that, with better wood.

05 October 2009, 02:45

Tommyhawk

There is another .500 cartridge. The .500 Belted Magnum. It was designed to fit in a standard 98 action. Shoots a .510 dia., 535 gr. bullet at 2150 fps. Is the same length as a 30-06. It's in the new "Cartridges of the World", 12th Ed.

05 October 2009, 03:15

Duane Wiebe

I'd never argue that there aren't a lots of spelendid 500's out there, especially for the guy that likes to trim, turn, fire form and then still have chamber that he can't possibly purchase ready made ammo.

Just not for me and apparently my clients either.

Let's see..oh...re-heat treating...don't want to get into that!

The wood choice on that 500 you see for sale.. I can only say that it is properly laid out for such a heavy kicker with dense grain structure.

I do not use any synhetic bedding material (aka glass) in any stock I make. I know in my heart this rifle will hold up to more recoil cycles than any shooter or shooters is capable of handling...THAT, my friends, is the proper ctiteria for any stock wood. If you can get "pretty" at the same time, you have hit the jackpot.

05 October 2009, 03:21

MJines

quote:
Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:
Just not for me and apparently my clients either.

05 October 2009, 04:00

Scrollcutter

quote:
Staying alive means hunting with a caliber that begins with a five

I like your motto...grin!

05 October 2009, 06:17

jeffeosso

quote:
Originally posted by Tommyhawk:
There is another .500 cartridge. The .500 Belted Magnum. It was designed to fit in a standard 98 action. Shoots a .510 dia., 535 gr. bullet at 2150 fps. Is the same length as a 30-06. It's in the new "Cartridges of the World", 12th Ed.

Tommy
Click on the 500 AR in my signature .. 535s all the way to 2465, 600s to 2300, if you want to, and fits in a standard action ..

NO belt
NO rebate -- all webby cases are rebated, butI actually don't care about a minor rebate

the 505 empire also fills that bill

05 October 2009, 06:57

Duane Wiebe

As stated before: great cartridge you mention..lots of them witing to be devloped.... ah...maybe...But..show me a PH who uses anything but factory available ammo.

I've built a few rifles for PH's in the "dark continent" They order anyting that they can buy ammo from SOMEBODY. 460 Wby is popular.. so is 458 Win.never had any of these want or request some sort of wildcat .

For good reason: In some African countries, reloading equipment will land you in Happy Jacks Tomato Ranch.

No...500 Van Horns. 5ooAR. 500 Magnum just will not cut it in Africa. NO MATTER how "GOOD" it is

05 October 2009, 07:10

jeffeosso

Oh, DW.. Bulls!hit
The 458lott, 20 years ago, was gaining and gaining...
the 458 winmag was a "wildcat" one day ... as well as the 416 rem.. and even the 404 ..

Seriously, man, "will not cut it" is just jackassery .. if this was in ANY way true, we'd all still be using front stuffers

quote:
Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:
As stated before: great cartridge you mention..lots of them witing to be devloped.... ah...maybe...But..show me a PH who uses anything but factory available ammo.

I've built a few rifles for PH's in the "dark continent" They order anyting that they can buy ammo from SOMEBODY. 460 Wby is popular.. so is 458 Win.never had any of these want or request some sort of wildcat .

For good reason: In some African countries, reloading equipment will land you in Happy Jacks Tomato Ranch.

No...500 Van Horns. 5ooAR. 500 Magnum just will not cut it in Africa. NO MATTER how "GOOD" it is

05 October 2009, 07:28

Grandpasez

AS long as you got to get a barrel and
set up the feeding, in Mausers and other
shorter regular actions,maybe use 585 Short HE.
Why stop at .510" diameter bullets. They are so
ordinary. Soon have a reamer, got lots of cases.Ed

05 October 2009, 07:39

Duane Wiebe

I have no idea what you're talking about!

05 October 2009, 07:42

ForrestB

Jeff, I think Duane's comment was in regard to customer demand not cartridge capability.

It's easy to be a wildcatter here. Other places, not so easy.

05 October 2009, 07:47

Idaho Sharpshooter

Guys, Duane is spot on about PH rifles and chamberings. My PH was impressed by the 450 Dakota I brought for buffalo. His only concern about having a CZ in the fraternal twin 450 Rigby was a steady source of factory ammunition. Here we have unlimited choices, there they have "what is available". He really thought the 550 would be a real Elephant stomper, but where would he get ammunition? Greatest hunting on earth, very limited access to reloading supplies and chamberings. If we had the freedoms there we enjoy here, I would be moved over about 18 minutes after I finished packing up all my rifles and gear. Just one medium Conex container full and my Dodge Diesel P/U.

Rich

05 October 2009, 08:05

Duane Wiebe

Gentlemen: This entire thread has been frustrating, informative, ...but mostly entertaining..sort of like a good poker party..enjoyable...I'm off the WY tomorrow in pursuit of the dangerous and elusive Pronghorn..

I'm using a 270 Win..which is far superior to the 30-06...Oh Hell...let's not go there!!!

Enjoyed every minute...all the best to a bunch of really great guys!