Hi there, I would like to know from you guys what you think would be the preferred rifle for a trail-guide in Africa. I have left out .470s, .500s or any doubles, or powerful wildcat bolt-rifles as they are out of the reach of the average guide. I would have thrown the .458 Lott into the equation, and it would probably be my favourite choice with reservations. I am referring to someone, who probably does not have access to reloads, and who would use either of these calibres with most likely factory ammo (I am assuming most guides do not reload).

I am speaking for the average guide, who does not earn a huge salary, and would have to spend extra money (which he probably does not have) reaming out a Win Mag to a Lott and who also may have to rely on factory ammo. It would be my guess that a great majority of guides probably use these 2 calibres the most?

It is partly a rhetorical question, because, I would think the .458 would probably be a better choice in a guide's situation, (ie no time for messing around, make or break, having to shoot at the last minute and needing to stop the charge then and there). The only thing is, firstly, .458 ammo is quite a bit more expensive than .375 ammo, and for someone who does not enjoy shooting a heavy recoiling rifle often, the .375 may be the better choice maybe? Secondly or thirdly, if you miss the brain of a charging beast with a solid bullet, be it a lion, buff or elephant, (or other) will it be enough to stop or turn the charge and would the advantage of the .458 be enough over the .375 to warrant it's place as first choice?

I've never been to Africa, but if I did go and found my professional guide/body guard not packing at least a 458 Win mag or something more powerful I would be annoyed.
I would like to know if he can shoot it too.
4 rounds, quick as possible into a tight little group at 25 yds.
But that just me, the paying customer!

No problem with the Lott, you can safely use Win Mag ammo in a pinch with no loss of velocity or power.

Being recoil shy is no excuse, If you are going to take responsibility for the safety of others, you owe it to yourself to become competent with the best cartridge for the job.

Recoil for the Lott/Win Mag is heavy but the average shooter can learn to handle it with practice.

There is no doubt that the Lott/Win Mag is superior to the .375 at stopping a charge.

If factory ammo is a must, I would also take a good look at the .416 Rem as a compromise.

This may be more appropriate in the "African Travel" forum, but since you asked, I'll try to answer.

I would never go into the bush unarmed myself (and therefore will never be a tourist in Africa), but I'd rather see a guide carry a .40+ in elephant country.

What are a "trail guide's" responsibilities? If it is to protect tourists from dangerous beasties, then they shouldn't take the client into a dangerous situation. Since the "trail guide" will probably do it anyway to enhance the experience (and their tip), the rifle should be adequate to kill, or at least turn, a determined aggressor.

If the danger is likely, then the outfit should make sure its "trail guides" are a) adequately armed before allowing them to escort clients, and, b) CAPABLE of handling themselves and their rifle in a pinch.

George

The usual client going to Africa will bring a 375 H+H. I would have thought you will have to have a 458 win mag as a minimum preferably a 458 Lott. If you are recoil shy think of another job though as lives are depending on you.

Mark

Thanks for the responses guys and please keep them coming. Sorry George, I was not sure exactly which forum would be best to place this thread, please move it if need be. I think that you have to be very competent with your weapon. This is not an option, I know that you have to pass quite a stringent shooting exam before you can even consider taking a people on a guided tour in dangerous game areas, and thereafter you have to shoot at least 20 rounds a month or so and am sure re-testing is done frequently on your competence if you are going to be doing walks.

I think that a .416 would probably make a very sound choice too, but it has just been my (limited) experience so far, that the most common choice of calibre for guides in South Africa at least so far has been either .375 or .458, with the .458 being the main choice for guides, whether or not these are the best choices for the job. I think for the PH, it is different, since he usually has more of a budget for a better choice of rifle, and can at least reload for it too. If the company for which you are working provides the rifle and ammo, I would think they would go for the most affordable, powerful weapon available, which would probably be a CZ 550 in .458 Win Mag.

If the company has enough money (and reloading facilities and licenses, etc) then you could afford to shoot the heaviest calibres and best ammo that they can provide, etc. I know the .458 Express too has had some sort of interest in SA, and the .458 Lott too would be quite popular with PH's and some guides, but I would not have thought that they were the most commonly used choices. I think that recoil would not be a factor when your mental attitude is focused on saving your and other people's lives, and a flinch would probably be the last thing on my mind at least. I am sure that most people who have not come from a shooting/hunting background or are small framed ladies (of which there are a fair few), then they would probably shoot better with a .375 than a .458. I presume that no body would use the .375 if it were too light, although it is the minimum, it still seems to be used fairly frequently, and that is the main reason for my question. That is, if it is too light, then why do guides still use it?

Since you are not a Guide or PH, why ask the question?

I do not know any PH that uses a 375 H&H. So there is the answer.

I think a PH should be carrying something .400+, so I would say the .458.

Hi Will, I asked the question, because I am thinking of going and doing guiding at some stage. If I have to buy, license and own my own rifle, that is if the company does not supply me with a rifle and can not lend it to me due to tight fire-arm law restrictions etc, then I have to make a decision on a calibre and which would be the best choice. Firstly, I am not a big hunter, and would probably not own much else besides a .22 and air rifle (both of which were sadly sold before temporarily moving up to the UK and are both very useful for maintaining shooting form and affordable to shoot). I am referring to guides and not PHs in terms of shooting .375's. I do not know of any PH's who use .375's, but do know of guides that have and do use them.

I would have to seriously think of reloading, but getting hold of components and licenses could be quite awkward, in which case, it would be best to get something that you can shoot factory ammo with if need be. My first choice would be a CZ 550 in
.458 Lott, but then you can not buy these off the shelf, and only a few ammo companies make expensive ammo for it, and the fact that I would probably not reload for it could be a problem. A .458 Win mag would be my second choice, and at least could probably always find someone who reloads for this calibre too as a bonus. Third choice would be a .375, I have not shot with any of these big bores, my shooting has been limited to shotguns, .270's .308's etc, so it would be quite a jump even to a .375 at first, although with enough practise I could probably shoot a cannon as well as required! I know on paper the .458 is better, but is it significantly better than the .375? The last time I checked (a long time ago) a box of .458's (PMP factory) cost something like R500, which is a lot of money for a guide who probably earns around R8-10 000 a month. I can't remember the price of .375's but they were around R270.

I remembered at the time wondering if the .458 was worth it in terms of performance over the .375 for the difference in ammo price! I think though at the end of the day, you can not put a price on lives, so I would probably go with the .458, although I would maybe not want to shoot it as much as the .375, but would probably be competent enough I would hope, and at least feel more confident with the choice, and knowing that I can at least reload for it and use cheap cast bullets, and ream it out to a Lott in time if I feel the need to. I would probably prefer to shoot a .375 at first and then move on up to a .458 and then up to a Lott, especially with my inexperience of really heavy rifles. I think that if you are a confident shot and can remain calm under stressful conditions with a .375, you should probably be fine, no matter what other people may think. However, I would also agree that bigger is better.

Nzou,

I think you have answered your own question. Get a 458 WM. A 458 WM has noticably more punch than a 375. And a Lott will not help much over a 458 WM. I could never get used to the Lott recoil either. It's too abusive.

Good luck whatever you decide.

Thank you for your wishes and comments everyone, I think that a .458 would probably be the best bet in the end. If I were the paying client too, I would also want to see my guide using something in the .400+ category, and that he knew how to use it well under pressure. I think that it is pretty rare for incidents to happen, as the guide will try avoid these at all costs, but incidents do happen from time to time, and they are often pretty serious.

I think the biggest risk by far would be a cow elephant, which can probably be turned if you are not taken completely unawares. Then again, thick bush would probably be avoided, and you never know what situation you might run into, but you need to be prepared for any unexpected situation just the same. A .375 would probably be lighter to carry, and cheaper to shoot than a .458, but would be a trade-off for power. I suppose you can't always have your cake and eat it!

If you wind up as a Guide, whatever cartridge you choose, you need to get on AR and pimp guys that are coming over to bring spare ammo.

Pimp my guide.

quote:

Originally posted by greenjoy:
I've never been to Africa, but if I did go and found my professional guide/body guard not packing at least a 458 Win mag or something more powerful I would be annoyed.
I would like to know if he can shoot it too.
4 rounds, quick as possible into a tight little group at 25 yds.
But that just me, the paying customer!

I've been. Have had guides carry anything from a .300 H&H or WinMag to a .416 Rigby. I never checked their shooting but they checked mine before they let me hunt. Shot most things with my .375. Good general purpose rifle when it's going to be a mixed bag of what you are hunting. Lesser choice if something might be trying to kill you. Next trip back I'm taking a .223, a .375, and a Lott.

The most important thing to me has always been not allowing guides to carry MY rifle. Been offered to me but always rejected in summary fashion.

Although I would bring my 375 H&H, I think the 416 Rem or its ilk would be the best of both worlds. Lou