Yesterday I shot a Krieghoff double rifle for the first time. I have shot lots of English doubles up to 500 nitro and hunted with quite a few of them, so I can talk with a little experience of shooting a double rifle. I have to say that I have never quite liked the feel of a Krieghoff whenever I have handled them, and could never put my head around it. Anyway I took 2 shots off hand at 50 yards with a 470 equipped with an aimpoint and was very pleased with my 2" spread. That aside I found it to be very mild recoiling, given that I was wearing a dress shirt with no pad or anything and was also very impressed that the gun had very little muzzle rise! The rep told me that this is because Krieghoff rifles are built to be muzzle heavy and that is why there barrels have little or no taper from the muzzle to the breach unlike English doubles which are built to balance between the hands!

Look forward to others views on this. The new Krieghoffs also come with ejectors now.

Arjun Reddy
www.huntersnetworks.com

quote:

Originally posted by reddy375:
... Krieghoff rifles are built to be muzzle heavy and that is why there barrels have little or no taper from the muzzle to the breach unlike English doubles which are built to balance between the hands!

Look forward to others views on this. The new Krieghoffs also come with ejectors now.

Arjun Reddy
www.huntersnetworks.com

Some would say that the Krieghoff must therefore feel like a fence post in the hands of the shooter,
just like a Merkel and most non-British double rifles, what?

How much does the Krieghoff 470 NE weigh?
My Merkel is about 10.75 pounds, and also very pleasant to shoot, with a 1" Decelerator pad fitted to it in Alabama.

Arjun,

The reason a K470 seems not too kick much is the relatively straight butt stock. All them "English boys" must be willing to absorb recoil abuse just to look pretty!

It doesn't flip much for the same reason. The guy at Krieghoff apparently doesn't know why the barrel profile is the way it is.

I'll tell you someday, but the English guys around here just couldn't handle it.

Totally down to stock profile and nothing else Arjun

Wish I had that stock profile when I shot this bugger

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quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by reddy375:
... Krieghoff rifles are built to be muzzle heavy and that is why there barrels have little or no taper from the muzzle to the breach unlike English doubles which are built to balance between the hands!

Look forward to others views on this. The new Krieghoffs also come with ejectors now.

Arjun Reddy
www.huntersnetworks.com

Some would say that the Krieghoff must therefore feel like a fence post in the hands of the shooter,
just like a Merkel and most non-British double rifles, what?

How much does the Krieghoff 470 NE weigh?
My Merkel is about 10.75 pounds, and also very pleasant to shoot, with a 1" Decelerator pad fitted to it in Alabama.

The Krieghoff 470 weight approx 10,8 pounds. Just about the same as Merkel. I have weighted both of them in my serach for new double. ( se thread for 450/400 NE v 450 Ne v 470 NE )

quote:

Originally posted by londonhunter:
Totally down to stock profile and nothing else Arjun

Wish I had that stock profile when I shot this bugger

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Shoulder ok ?

Very high iron sights on the Krieghoff to allow a sight picture with that stock?
This Krieghoff Classic looks muzzle light and lively, and has minimum-drop stock:



Compare to the H&H stock profile, with not much difference in barrel profile:



Then there is a Merkel we hope is a 500 NE to lighten those heavy muzzles a bit, with drop of stock much like H&H:



Verney-Carron seems to be building them like H&H. Here is a 450/400:

I have two Krieghoffs. They are great guns. I have become acclimated to the combi cocking system and now prefer it to a conventional safety. They are very safe. A professional hunter might feel differently. On the used market, they are an exceptional buy. My 500/.416 is muzzle heavy. My 500 is a bit muzzle light. They are hell for stout.

My 500 weighs less then my 500/.416, perhaps 10.25 pounds but it is not difficult to shoot. Todd Williams encouraged me to pick up the 500 and he was right about the recoil. It is more of a big push. I would love to have a .577 but I think it would be more of a novelty. For a visiting elephant hunter, the 500 is the best combination of weight and stopping power. The 577 and 600 are just to heavy for me.

They do not "come with ejectors now." Ejectors can be added at extra cost. However, I prefer extractors.

Does anyone know if the older version of the Krieghoff can be retrofitted easily to have ejectors or is there something drastically different in the new design to allow for them?

Thanks,
Kyler

quote:

Originally posted by Kyler Hamann:
Does anyone know if the older version of the Krieghoff can be retrofitted easily to have ejectors or is there something drastically different in the new design to allow for them?

Thanks,
Kyler

I understand from my gundealer in Norway that they can do it, but it will cost you a fortune. This is due to reconstruction the old system and forend with springs to get the whole thing working. I have also talked to the Merkel factory in German and they simply do not do it on old models.If you want a Merkel with ejectors you have to buy a new one.

Krieghoff said to me they cannot do it.

quote:

Originally posted by Kyler Hamann:
Does anyone know if the older version of the Krieghoff can be retrofitted easily to have ejectors or is there something drastically different in the new design to allow for them?

Thanks,
Kyler

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
I have two Krieghoffs. They are great guns. I have become acclimated to the combi cocking system and now prefer it to a conventional safety. They are very safe. A professional hunter might feel differently. On the used market, they are an exceptional buy. My 500/.416 is muzzle heavy. My 500 is a bit muzzle light. They are hell for stout.

My 500 weighs less then my 500/.416, perhaps 10.25 pounds but it is not difficult to shoot. Todd Williams encouraged me to pick up the 500 and he was right about the recoil. It is more of a big push. I would love to have a .577 but I think it would be more of a novelty. For a visiting elephant hunter, the 500 is the best combination of weight and stopping power. The 577 and 600 are just to heavy for me.

They do not "come with ejectors now." Ejectors can be added at extra cost. However, I prefer extractors.

Dave, I see that you have both Chapuis and Krieghoff. I am in the process of deciding for both caliber ( another thread here at Acc ) and mark. The choice is between Chapuis, Verney Carron, Merkel or Krieghoff. I just received a new Chapuis in caliber 8x57JRS to hunt moose and wild boar, but have not tested it yet. I have been test shooting a Krieghoff in 500 NE and as you say a heavy push. You have both Chapuis and Krieghoff. I am wondering about your feeling between the French and the German -with regard to absorbing recoil, triggers, opening action, emptying brass etc. ?? I know that Krieghoff has a different safety operation ( like Blaser ) so I am not thinking of that.

quote:

Originally posted by The Norwegian:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
I have two Krieghoffs. They are great guns. I have become acclimated to the combi cocking system and now prefer it to a conventional safety. They are very safe. A professional hunter might feel differently. On the used market, they are an exceptional buy. My 500/.416 is muzzle heavy. My 500 is a bit muzzle light. They are hell for stout.

My 500 weighs less then my 500/.416, perhaps 10.25 pounds but it is not difficult to shoot. Todd Williams encouraged me to pick up the 500 and he was right about the recoil. It is more of a big push. I would love to have a .577 but I think it would be more of a novelty. For a visiting elephant hunter, the 500 is the best combination of weight and stopping power. The 577 and 600 are just to heavy for me.

They do not "come with ejectors now." Ejectors can be added at extra cost. However, I prefer extractors.

Dave, I see that you have both Chapuis and Krieghoff. I am in the process of deciding for both caliber ( another thread here at Acc ) and mark. The choice is between Chapuis, Verney Carron, Merkel or Krieghoff. I just received a new Chapuis in caliber 8x57JRS to hunt moose and wild boar, but have not tested it yet. I have been test shooting a Krieghoff in 500 NE and as you say a heavy push. You have both Chapuis and Krieghoff. I am wondering about your feeling between the French and the German -with regard to absorbing recoil, triggers, opening action, emptying brass etc. ?? I know that Krieghoff has a different safety operation ( like Blaser ) so I am not thinking of that.

I know you asked Dave the question, but if I may, I'd like to offer an opinion. I currently own a Chapuis in 9.3X74R and VC in 500NE. I've previously owned a VC in 577NE and Merkel in 500NE. IMO, the VC rifles are head and shoulders above the Chapuis and Merkel, however, all are good quality rifles that I'd have no issue owning and hunting with.

They aren't just safe queens and range rifles either. I've taken quite a bit of game with the Chapuis including the lion in my signature line, 3 elephant (1 bull, 2 tuskless) with the Merkel 500NE as well as a couple of buffalo, and a buffalo and tuskless ele with the VC 577NE. All solid hunting rifles with no issues in the field. I'm hoping to take a bull ele with the VC 500NE in a couple of months and hopefully pull another leopard out of the tree with the Chapuis. You won't go wrong with any of these guns but I think you'll find the VC a bit of a step up in fit and finish. No doubt that the Merkel has a higher "perceived" recoil than the VC or Kreighoff due to the drop at heel measurements.

No problem Todd - I find your experience valuable info to my process of deciding

Rip,

Interesting rifle profile's you posted. Comparing the H&H and Merkel, with similar drop at the heel, I do notice a significant difference in pitch of the buttplate. Surely that has much to do with the Merkle's perceived recoil, probably even more so than the drop at heel!

Looking at the VC, it appears to have a more vertical pitch as well, even with the drop at heel. For some reason, I haven't noticed this before. Could have much to do with my "perceived" recoil difference between the Merky and VC 500's, even though my VC is about 3/4lbs lighter.

Your thoughts?

Todd,

The Krieghoff does have minimal drop and pitch, but it has a little of both, in the proper direction for both too.
I want to call that slight positive drop and slight positive pitch.

That buttplate pitch like the Merkel has will tend to decrease the muzzle rise that is aggravated by the greater drop, and it fits the manly-chested shoulder pocket most comfortably.
Makes that rifle just hang comfortably there, with barrels leveled automatically when shouldered.
I do not think it will increase recoil discomfort, but rather reduce it.
Gotta have some pitch or it ain't right! Feels awkward, slides off your pectoral-deltoid muscles, and makes barrels point skyward on a quick mount and point.

Zero pitch and the pointy toe of the butt starts digging into your chest painfully and lets the barrels lever upward as the heel comes back belatedly, rotating with the toe as the anchor.

That is such a bad picture of the Verney-Carron, you can't say anything much about that one.
Sumbuddy got a better picture of a VC SXS double rifle?

If you stand the Merkel upright with butt on floor and rib of barrels toward wall, the barrels will be angled away from the wall from breech to muzzles.
Breech will be against wall and muzzles will be out away from wall a couple or few inches.

Is that negative or positive pitch?
Can it be described that way? I forget.

Negative drop of stock means the heel is higher than the nose of comb.
Positive drop is what both the H&H and Merkel have, to about about the same degree.
The Krieghoff has a lesser amount of positive drop.

Pitch: If buttplate is perpendicular to the bore line that is zero pitch.

Can the Merkel be described as having positive pitch because it is not a negative for recoil comfort?

Or does the Merkel have positive pitch because it makes the barrels point away from the wall on the stand-on-floor check,
while negative pitch buries the muzzles into the wall?
I gotta get this straight in my mind.

Rip,

I do agree the Merkel fit very well when brought up to the shoulder. I was always able to mount the rifle with eyes closed, then open my eyes to find the sights were aligned perfectly. And that with an "off the shelf" rifle that wasn't built to my specifications. My VC does the same, but it was bespoken and the measurements are spot on.

However, I'm not sure about your discussion on the effects of positive, negative, or neutral pitch. For me, the angled pitch on the Merkel tended to dig into my shoulder / chest at the top whereas the VC, with a more neutral pitch seems to spread the recoil over a larger area without digging. I think this one of those topics that can't be solved with a blanket statement of what works best, but is rather dependent on the shape and tone of the muscles and bone structure of different shooters chest / shoulder area.

Here is a pic of my current VC 500. The angle of the photo isn't perfectly square as you can see a portion of the bottom barrel, but I think it's a bit better than the other VC photo:



BTW, I've always liked the K-Guns. I like the combi cocker and way the straight stock transfers recoil, but I've found very few that I was able to actually get my eyes onto the sights with due to the lack of drop at the heel. I think there are some fitted with a bit "taller" sights as you alluded to. I've held two of those rifles and they did seem to fit well. I suppose that may be an option one can order from Kreighoff?

Todd,
If you stand that VC against the wall, is there any pitch?
By eyeball, I still can't tell for sure.
My best guess is that there is a very small pitch to that stock, close to neutral/zero.

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bb...ic.php?f=12&t=235884

Very interesting thread above.

Pitch:

Neutral Pitch = Zero Pitch, bore line perpendicular to butt plane. Barrels parallel to wall with butt flat on floor.

Down Pitch = Positive Pitch, muzzles point away from the wall.

Up Pitch = Negative Pitch, muzzles point into the wall.

Neutral/Zero Pitch is rare, and not good for most shooters, tends to let the rifle slide off the shoulder.
Of course chest and shoulder anatomy makes a difference in fitting the individual shooter.

Up Pitch: Unknown on any rifle or shotgun I have seen. The toe will spear the chest and the muzzles will point at the sky.

So there is really only pitch or no pitch.
Either Up/positive pitch, or Neutral/zero pitch.

Pitch or no pitch.

I got it now.

Measuring it for a stock measurement is a different matter, several methods, discussed in the thread above.

More internet wisdom:

"Most people are accommodated by 5 to 7 degrees positive pitch." --"Col." Glenn Baker

There is only pitch.
Pitch is pitch is pitch, always in the same direction, just varying by degree, and always a positive number.
Or there is no pitch, nada, neutral, butt square to bore, zero-degree pitch.

I feel better now.

But pitch does tend to pitch the barrels downward or keep them level,
instead of pointing them upward on pressing the gun into shoulder and during recoil in firing.

Pitch:
Rifle viewed from the side, horizontal bore.
A perpendicular line projected out from the center of the butt plane will point down toward the ground.
Pitch is always positive and pitch is always down, or it is zero.
Never "negative" or "up" pitch.

Rip,

I'm away from home at work until tomorrow late. I'll have to do the standing against the wall test when I get back. Probably report back on Saturday with the results. I think there is a little pitch, as appears with the H&H. Definitely not as much as with the Merky though.

Of course, there is yet another dimension we haven't hit on yet that will affect "perceived" recoil as well, and is again, completely dependent upon being properly matched to the shooter's body type. We've hit on LOP, Drop at Heel, now pitch of the buttplate, and there is cast on, off, or neutral as well. I've forgotten the term but there is also the angle of the buttplate in terms of "twist" for a lack of better description until someone provides the proper term. In other words, pitch is the angle of the buttplate as viewed from the side, but what about the angle of the buttplate viewed from end on? Straight up and down or canted off to the side with toe "out" or "in" as compared to the heel.

Obviously all of these dimensions and angles can and do affect the way recoil is transmitted to the shooter's shoulder. It's why I've repeatedly stated that I believe proper fit of the stock is actually more important than gross weight of the rifle for any specific caliber. Again, my VC 500NE is 10.25 lbs which is very light for that caliber, but because it is fitted to my dimensions, the recoil is tamed very nicely ... for me, maybe not so much for another shooter. In my case, there is no need for it to weigh 12 lbs in order to be manageable.

Todd:

Of all the measurements, I think that proper LOP is most important. I have always struggled with proper LOP.. Both of my Chapuis doubles are in the 15 3/8 range. They are perfect for me at the range. However, with a heavy hunting coat on, my K-guns at 14.5 seem about right.

Under construction, might get interesting here:

http://www.gunstockfitter.com/Pitch.asp
The Gun Tailor

Lance customizes your gunstock to fit you. This requires a one-on-one fitting with you and your gun. Lance's workshop is a mobile trailer and he travels from shooting clubs to shooting events and sportsmen's clubs. Lance will come to your home if you or your friends have four or five guns to be fitted.

Some trade secrets are best kept secret, but the services Lance provides helps level the playing field in competitions.

Lance has helped:

Hall of Fame trap shooters
Hall of Fame skeet shooters
State Champion sporting clay shooters
World Champion pigeon shooters
Police Chiefs
Olympic hopefuls
Big game hunters
Wing shooters
Sportsmen
Your gun and your body should swing as one following your target. Your gun stock should fit the same every time you mount for a shot, this provides the consistency and control you need to be properly aligned. These same principles apply to target shooting or hunting.

Yes, Cutting your gun stock is scary! You just spent $1,000, $5,000 or maybe even $100,000 on your shotgun or rifle! You may have even spent $2,000 or more for custom wood for your stock! The stock is a beautiful piece of wood and a large part of your choice to buy, and Lance wants to cut it to adjust the stock? Well, did you buy the gun to put it on the shelf or trade it? Then oil it up and put it in your gun safe. Or did you buy it to use it, hit targets, break clays, increase your score, or hit game? Then let Lance make your stock fit YOU!

Shotguns

A properly fitting gun stock on a shotgun is like a scope on a rifle: you mount it to your cheek, shoulder and eye and your body and gun are in line so you can see your target properly and follow it.

Rifles

Every gun stock consideration for shotguns applies to rifles for different reasons. Yes, you may have a scope, you still want proper recoil (no muzzle jump), proper eye alignment, proper grip to hit your targets, at the range or in the field.



Pitch
Pitch is the angle on your gun, and it is wrong on virtually every rifle and shotgun on the market! The angle of your stock butt to your barrel determines if your shot is high or low and if the gun has muzzle jump or recoil.

Proper pitch helps you find your target faster!

Your gun should recoil properly and not have muzzle jump which will affect the accuracy and recovery time of your shots. Ensure your gun recoils as it was designed, straight back into your grip and shoulder, you don't want to have to reaim and center your target after each shot!

On to other aspects of stock fitting, glad I don't need one of these ... yet ...
Cross-over or cross-eye stock:


http://www.shotgunworld.com/bb...pic.php?f=2&t=190266

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
On to other aspects of stock fitting, glad I don't need one of these ... yet ...
Cross-over or cross-eye stock:


http://www.shotgunworld.com/bb...pic.php?f=2&t=190266

Holy Crap Man! Look at that thing!!

Here ya go Ripper!

The standing against the wall test with the VC! I made sure to place the buttstock completely flat against the floor, and yes, there is a fair amount of angle away and distance from the wall at the muzzles, indicating more "pitch" than the naked eye perceives.

By comparison, although I no longer have the Merkel, I've placed the Chapuis as well as my Arietta 28ga Sidelock together for a quick view of dimensions. I made exactly sure, with a tape measure, that the barrels are perfectly parallel to each other, and placed a long white paper to both provide contrast and a straight edge for comparing the pitch of the buttplates. Something that really stands out to me is that the angles of all three guns appear very similar. Possibly a bit less pitch on the Chapuis, the one in the middle. Of the three, the Chapuis feels like the comb is too high for the iron sights, but is perfect with the scope mounted. I now wonder if the "comb is too high" in reality, or if the issue is really the buttplate pitch instead?

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
I would love to have a .577 but I think it would be more of a novelty.

No, it won't!

quote:

Originally posted by PD999:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
I would love to have a .577 but I think it would be more of a novelty.

No, it won't!

Agree! A 577NE is a fine hunting caliber and weapon for the biggest, mean, and nasty stuff in the jesse!

Todd,
Thanks. Agree on all you pointed out in your latest.
If I get another double it will have to be a ...