I see that Searcy is making a double in 470NE, .577NE, and .450 NE (3.25"). What does the .450NE shoot like? Velocity? Pressures? Recoil? What is the availability of brass? Can a 45 Cylindrical (Basic) brass be used?

Sounds like it could be a nice cartridge, but does anyone have one? I'd appreciate your comments. Ku-dude

The 450 is the one that started it all. If it weren't for the ban on 45cal by India the 465, 470, etc would never have came about and the 450, 450#2 and H&H's 500/450 would still be more widely used. Ballistics are much the same as any of the others mentioned, 500grs @ 2100fps. Brass is easy to come by, MAST has it and Bertram does as well I'm sure. One advantage of the 450 is that the action can be made slimmer than one for the 470 so rifles are generally a bit lighter and trimmer. Considering the availability of 458 bullets it should be the caliber of choice for the avid shooter as it is in no way inferior to any of the others. 450 Basic brass is the proper one to use, whereas the 465 and 470 use 500Basic which is larger in diameter. Recoil in the few I've shot was much the same as the 470, which is quite tolerable to me in a rifle of 10 pounds or so.

[This message has been edited by John S (edited 05-02-2001).]

A 450 NE could be made slimmer (in a custom gun and receiver) but most likely would wind up heavier as the maker (such as Searcy) would make all the barrels to the same outside dimensions, and as the 450 is smaller than a 470, etc., the barrels come out heavier: e.g., the .375 Merkel is heavier than the 470 Merkel. Go figure, or go see the bean counters.

Will

Will,
Unlike the imports,all my rifles are made to order. My barrel contours are proportional to the bore. The 470 and 450 will way the same 10 1/4 to 10 1/2 lbs. The reason is I would probably regulate the 450 to shoot 500 gr. bullets to 2150 fps. making the recoil of both almost the same. FYI the 500 N.E. is 11 to 11 1/2 lbs., and 375 H&H is 9 to 9 1/2 lbs.
My next trip to Africa will be with a 450 N.E. regulated to 2200 fps with a 500 gr. bullet.

Is there a velocity at which a 500 grain bullet can be regulated which will permit use of 350 bullets at a usable velocity? I have to say based upon my experience with 416's and 404's, that 400 grains @ 2300 in a 10 lbs rifle is reaching my limit. Ku-dude

Mr. Searcy:

Maybe I overstepped my bounds on making generalities. It is my pregidous against heavy weight rifles, I guess.

Those doubles are getting heavier to carry every year, for me. I just can't see the point of 10 lb. 470's and 11 lb. 500's. They were never intended to be "target" shooters, and I see no need to fire 20 to 100 rounds in a sitting in any caliber.

I've handled a few European custom 465's, 470's, etc. that "felt" like they weighed closer to 8 1/2 lbs. Now a 8 1/2 or 9 lb. 470 or even a 500 would be nice to carry. And if using it for it's original purpose, including stopping a charge, recoil is entirely irrelevant.

Any way to make a 8 1/2 or 9 pound 500?

Will

Several of the 450s I've handled were Army/Navy models that were built on small frames and weighed under 10 pounds. They handled and felt like a dream, nothing else really ever felt as good in my hands. The last double I worked with was a WR 500-3" that weighed 10-1/4 pounds and I wouldn't mind packing it around either! I like lighter weight guns myself as shooting one in anger makes recoil a nonexistant factor. If I were to ever have another double I would pick the 450 and try to insist the weight be kept under 10pounds, around nine would be perfect!
Will- Several years ago I almost bought a 500 made by a continental maker and it weighed slightly over 9 pounds, nice......!! Wish I would have done so these days!!

KuDude: The other posters are right. The .450 NE is simply the old .450 Black Powder Express with its long, tapered shell filled with cordite and topped with a 480-grain bullet. Rigby reportedly came up with this in 1898. For an article on the BP version, see Ross Seyfried's in the July 2000 issue of Rifle Magazine. I recently obtained cases from Huntington's (they shipped Bertrams as they were out of HDS), and found a set of old RCBS dies in a local shop. I plan to have my .458 Win Mag Ruger Tropical reamed to take the .450 NE. Ballistics will be about the same, although there is plenty room in that big case for more powder than a .458 can hold. My previous experience with big bores was limited to shooting a .416 Rigby with 400-grain bullets at about 2350, so I am expecting to have to learn to deal with the next level of recoil with the .450. But the nice thing is that the Ruger No. 1 will allow me to shoot lead plinking loads and lighter jacketed bullets without my having to worry about the regulated barrels of a double. This way I can work up to as much recoil as I can stand and still have accuracy.

Bill/Oregon:

The 450 NE has basically the same muzzle energy (and therefore recoil) as all the rest, on the order of 5000 +/- ft-lbs: 465 NE, 475 NE, 470 NE, and the 416 Rigby.

So you will notice no diffference, or at least I wouldn't.

But that straight little 450 case is a cute little thing, even if it is only a 480 gr. bullet!

Will

Will,
I hope you don't think I took offense of any kind, for I didn't. Just clarifying things.
Alot of you talk about light big bores, you can go to light, just as you can go to heavy. Except for my field grade rifles I try to accomodate the customer within reason. The only rifle I ever made for myself was a 13.5 lb. 577 N.E. I retired it because it was to heavy for me. My last hunt was with a 10 1/4 lb. 470 N.E. I have found, when most have light rifles they don't shoot them enough to become proficient with them. Which brings me to another opinion of mine. On another post comparing the 470 to the 458 Lott. Several made comments on how mush better the Lott is over the 470. Without a doubt the Lott has more energy, but I think that if the shooter puts the bullets of both cartridges into the same place, the animal will go down just as quick. My point anyway is double rifle owners don't shoot enough to be as efficient as they are with bolt rifles. I'm in no way saying the 470 has as mush power as the Lott. This is only what I have observed over the years.

Dear Mr. Searcy:

Not to beat this to death, but you are correct in that expense, time, and abuse from shooting a big double probably doesn't make one as proficient as one should be, for most, though I try.

To each his own, but I view the double as a short range proposition, nothing greater than 50 yards and less than 25 is better, quick follow up shot if needed. When you accidentally get within spitting distance of a cow ele with a calf, which may or may not charge at any instant, you want all the fire power God can give you.

The real problem with a double is not being a proficient shot but being proficient with reloading it, in a hurry. I ran across a Spaniard that had made a finger held clip to hold two NE cartridges that could be rapidly fed into his double. Pretty clever design (By the way I love those Spaniards...they have such an appreciation for good doubles).

And all that takes practice. I admit I am not at a reloading proficiency level that I am comfortable with in the heat of the moment, when it counts.

And your custom rifle comment reveals my real motivation for claiming doubles weigh too much. I want a $75,000 9 lb. 500 NE for $500. If I could afford one to have one built, I wouldn't be lamenting the fact that less expenive doubles weigh too much, for me.

More power to you for being the lone voice in American double rifles.

Will

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 05-03-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 05-03-2001).]

Like Butch said, folks tend not to shoot light doubles much, therefore thier reloading skills do not develope...Any double in 45 to 50 caliber should weigh 10.5 lbs and thats not too much to carry..I'm 66 and I carry a 10 lb. 450-400-3" that I can shoot 50 rounds at a sitting with and I shoot it too much...

Another factor seldom didcussed is how steady a 10.5 lb. rifle holds under stress and how a lighter rifle bounces around when you need it the most.

An even greater falicy is I can't shoot it off the bench but I never feel the recoil while hunting...Maybe so but if you are afraid of the gun off the bench you will develope a flinch and you will flinch while hunting wheather you feel it or not. Bottom line is you can shoot the gun under any and all circumstances OR YOU CANNOT!!!! No middle ground here boys.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Ray -

I think we have a parting of the ways here. I lug my 10 470 around, but it is too heavy after 4 or 5 hours.

Steady is not a problem at under 25 yards, especially when hunting. The only unsteady stuff is on the range, taking that continual abuse.

I still contend the weak links (besides myself) are rapid reloading, old age eyesight, and too much weight (not me, the gun, well...maybe me too).

Will

I will agree in part about what Ray is saying here, either you can handle the gun or you cannot. Recoil effects always sneak in during hunting but they usually go unnoticed unless one gut shoots the animal or misses it entirely. I know, it's happened to me. I had a open broadside shot at a standing buffalo and lifted my ahead enough to miss the damned thing! Let's just say that I practiced a helluva lot more before the next hunt.
However, rifle weight is still something I want the least of that I can get by with, if the rifle kicks me too hard then I'll go down enough in caliber to accomodate my comfort level. Ten pounds is absolute maximum for me if I'm going to carry it more than two or three hours.
As for the steady holding, I never knew one needed to do that when something is 25yds and closing rapidly. The double is always touted because one is supposed to handle it like a shotgun and point & shoot it. I can't see where a heavier, and thus steadier gun would have any advantage. Maybe so, but I doubt it, at least for me.
Killing power, knockdown, or whatever you choose to call it is better with bigger bores, all things considered. It cannot be any other way. BUT, bullet placement and construction must be equal, as does velocity. As an example, a PH friend of mine used to carry a 500 double and I was using a 416 Rigby. Once we had a buffalo turn and run after getting the first shot from my rifle. As he departed the PH shot while I was reloading, if there was any difference in the effect I couldn't detect it. I borrowed that rifle later and shot a buffalo with it and again, I didn't see any much difference. Was it the quality of the bullets, the velocity, or what?

John:

I agree that rifles are way too heavy. The point is that when you are trying to "stop" something, weight and recoil are irrelevant. A bouncing buff or ele that is headed your way is not an easy thing to brain, the ideal outcome. You need the biggest bore you can handle, to stop or turn it, and sometimes even that isn't enough. It's pretty scary stuff.

Take a sack of old golf balls out and scatter them around at 25 yds and 50 yds. then git on them and shoot as fast as you can with a light rifle and a heavy rifle...I can do much better with my 10 Lb. double than with my lighter guns as it settles faster...I don't use the sights at all up to about 35 yds...I do sometimes at 50 and always use them beyond 50 yds....Try it and let me know if you can tell the difference in the faster on target with the heavy...Maybe its just me, I'd like to know..
but I think its a scenario for an I told you so!! (grin)

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

I'm never sure about that grin.
I just weighed 10 of my rifles the lightest was a 25-06 Abolt @7lb12oz heaviest was a 300win mag @9lbs14oz. all with scopes.
Average was 9lbs4oz. Now add the ammo.A double in 300 win mag with only 2 shells in it sounds good. Seriouly I'd like to try one.

RR

grin