I spoke about my 416 lazzeroni meteor a few weeks back. I am looking to up grade to a 458 lott or possibly a double in 450-470 and have no idea of recoil in those weapons. I realize the stock style matters, and there are other variables. I would probably end up with a cz 550/ winc model 70 safari or RSM for a 458 lott.

My current rifle weighs in at a mere 8# with teh scope included. It was built by banser and I believe it is one of his own made stocks, synthetic. It has sa very sharp kick, more than a push. In fact it cuts me 1/3 of the time in hunting situations. I plan on adding weight to the rifle, but want to upgrade to heavier and am just wondering how other rifles recoil compared to this one.

I have read the charts on AR and other places, I was just looking for any real world experience.

Seriously?
Cuts you 1 out of 3 trigger pulls?
Is that a scope bite on forehead or a hand cut from bolt handle, trigger guard, or forearm stud?
Not good!

A 10 or 11-pound 458 Lott or 470 NE double will surely be gentler than an 8-pounds-with-scope .416 Lazzeroni Meteor, assuming proprietary/factory loads all around.

You better quit shooting that Meteor before you are ruined.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
A 10 or 11-pound 458 Lott or 470 NE double will surely be gentler than an 8-pounds-with-scope .416 Lazzeroni Meteor, assuming proprietary/factory loads all around.

+1

A normal weight, properly stocked .458 Lott bolt rifle or .450-.470 class Nitro Express double rifle will feel like a pussycat compared to your lightweight .416 Lazzeroni Meteor.

Yeah, in the face. Ask Vaughan Fulton he was there on a couple of the bleeds.. I did flinch one time that I caught myself on. Other thanthat I am pretty hard headed and know it's coming. Never said I was the brightest turnip on the truck

Your scope is mounted too far back. If it has sufficient eye relief, move it further forward.

Also, the length of pull on your rifle may be too short; add a slip-on recoil pad to see if that adds enough length.

George

Ouch.

Get yourself a scope with 5" eye-relief.

Nikon's are proving rugged and they have a new "Inline" muzzleloader model that has 3-9 power and 5" eye-relief, and the Slughunter 1.6-5 power with 5" eye-relief.

I have a .458 Lott in Ruger RSM that is not bad to shoot. The recoil is there but it is very manageable.

I also have a SxS in 500-416 that has substantial recoil and isn't fun too shoot. The gun fits me well and weighs about 11.5 lbs but the recoil is harsh.

Newsflash- a scope should never ever hit you period end of discussion! You don't need 5 inches of eye relief either if you know how to shoot q big bore properly. I don't need 1 inch with a .600 ok and I'm no superman. Have younever asked anyone who remotely knows what they are doing to watch you shoot? I have no idea what your set-up is like but it's clearly
Not working.Adding rifle weight helps but no offense if you can't shoot a 8 lb gun your not going tonfix that problem
With a 13lb gun either. -Rob

I think technique makes a lot of difference, but if you only have 3 inches of eye relief with a hard kicker I would expect it to cut you no matter how good your technique is. I had 4.4 inches of eye relief with my 1.5 - 5 Leupold on my 11lb 505 Gibbs, and it me cut badly the first time I fired it. I had been shooting it with open sights for nearly a year by then, and I believe my technique was quite good by then. I now have 5 inches of eye relief with the 2.5 X Leupold compact, and I haven't had a problem since I changed the scope. I haven't fired a Lazzeroni Meteor, but from the numbers I would expect it to be worse than a 458 Lott, and in an 8 lb rifle it would be brutal. I would definitly recommend more rifle weight, and 5 inches of eye relief.

quote:

Originally posted by 338User:
I think technique makes a lot of difference, but if you only have 3 inches of eye relief with a hard kicker I would expect it to cut you no matter how good your technique is. I had 4.4 inches of eye relief with my 1.5 - 5 Leupold on my 11lb 505 Gibbs, and it me cut badly the first time I fired it. I had been shooting it with open sights for nearly a year by then, and I believe my technique was quite good by then. I now have 5 inches of eye relief with the 2.5 X Leupold compact, and I haven't had a problem since I changed the scope. I haven't fired a Lazzeroni Meteor, but from the numbers I would expect it to be worse than a 458 Lott, and in an 8 lb rifle it would be brutal. I would definitly recommend more rifle weight, and 5 inches of eye relief.

Be careful with quotations on eye-relief. That 4.4 inches of eye-relief quoted by 338 would have been a lot less if the scope was set at '4.5' magnification (Leupold's "1.5-5" has a max 4.5-power). The eye-relief at 4.5 power is only 3.7 inches in the Leupold 1.5-5 VariX3. That could surprise someone who was used to scrunching down on iron sights.

That being said, I've never had eyebrow cuts, including our hot-loaded 416's set at 3.8" eye-relief in the Nikon 2-8 Monarch. One need's to keep the head somewhat "up". Rob is right about technique playing a major role. But in hunting situations positions are sometimes awkward. The good news on the Nikon Slughunters and Inlines mentioned above is that their 5 inch eye-relief extends throughout the power range. The 1.65-5 gets 5 inches at 5-power, and the 3-9 Inline still gets 5 inches at 9 power!

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
[Be careful with quotations on eye-relief. That 4.4 inches of eye-relief quoted by 338 would have been a lot less if the scope was set at '4.5' magnification (Leupold's "1.5-5" has a max 4.5-power). The eye-relief at 4.5 power is only 3.7 inches in the Leupold 1.5-5 VariX3. That could surprise someone who was used to scrunching down on iron sights.

That being said, I've never had eyebrow cuts, including our hot-loaded 416's set at 3.8" eye-relief in the Nikon 2-8 Monarch. One need's to keep the head somewhat "up". Rob is right about technique playing a major role. But in hunting situations positions are sometimes awkward. The good news on the Nikon Slughunters and Inlines mentioned above is that their 5 inch eye-relief extends throughout the power range. The 1.65-5 gets 5 inches at 5-power, and the 3-9 Inline still gets 5 inches at 9 power!

Yes that is correct, there is less eye relief at 5X, the figure quoted was at 1.5x. It is a while ago now, so I do't remeber what magnification I had it on.

And I also did not intend to make it sound like I thought technique wasn't important. It is very important. Even with 5 inches of eye relief if your technique sucks, you will bleed.

Those Nikkon scopes must be something special. I will have to take a look at them.

Don't kid yourself for a minute. Shooting And setting up hard recoiling rides isn't genetic.you were not born with the knowledge! You need to be taught and learn how. Technique us everything and when things get exciting you need to fall back on training not excuses. Getting wacked hard enough to bleed is a perfect recipe got a major flinch that will
Never go away. Don't be that guy!-Rob

Thanks for the input. All of the whacked in the face times have been hunting and off sticks, prone, or for some reason that I can not get a full purchase on the weapon. I have killed multiple animals with this weapon, so I am not new to it. Also am looking to go to a bigger weapon, 458 Lott or 505 Gibbs. I like big guns.

So for you guys who say my technique may be off, what are your suggestions to get better?

Brent, here is link to a previous thread that addresses your question.

Handling Recoil

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Don't kid yourself for a minute. Shooting And setting up hard recoiling rides isn't genetic.you were not born with the knowledge! You need to be taught and learn how. Technique us everything and when things get exciting you need to fall back on training not excuses. Getting wacked hard enough to bleed is a perfect recipe got a major flinch that will
Never go away. Don't be that guy!-Rob

Hi Rob,
I am happy to take advice, if you are happy to offer it. This is what I do.

I place the butt in the vee of my shoulder, (ie where the collar bone meets the shoulder bone), this prevents the recoil from jarring your shoulder. I pull the gun in tight. I grip tight with the right hand. (This prevents the trigger guard from bashing your middle finger). I pull the gun into my body with the left hand (I am a right handed shooter). I bend my left knee slightly and put my weight on my left foot, with my right foot slightly behind me with the heel raised slightly. Then I squeeze the trigger while maintainig a clear sight picture. (Concentrating on the sight picture helps avoid the flinch reaction of blinking before you fire). Placing your weight forward, on your left foot (for right handed shooters), helps position your body weight forward so that the rifle recoils straight back to avoid the barrel coming up too high after the shot. This helps you recover from the recoil fast enough to get a second shot away as quickly as possible.

And here is a video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HIIVOatxCY

If you can offer any suggestions for improvemnt in technique I would be happy to try them out.

Brent
Can you post a picture of your rifle or better yet one of you shooting it under recoil from the side, you can block out the face if you prefer. Bansner rifles are excellent semi to full custom rifles. The main problem you have is the rifle weight is way too light and not practical for the size of the caliber. It's a sure medicine for pain! Technology and skilled labor can built it but it sure is not fun to shoot it, especially when you have better options out there. When you shoot big bores custom fit becomes a priority, it makes the whole experience much more pleasant. Get fitted by a custom gun fitter and have a properly built stock built to YOUR dimensions. What scope are you using? hopefully not a long range 4.4-14x sniper type variety especially from the prone, that's suicide. Don't fall for the listed eye relief numbers listed in the optics catalogues, marketing hype can lead to little fidgeting. Use what all the experts are using. Shoot with open sights if you have to. Otherwise install a forward mounted scout type scope. You will never get tagged with the rifle. Download your ammo and slowly work up to get rid of the flinch and hire a safari type shooting instructor if you have to. Large bore shoots are conducted a few times a year all over the country. Make it a priority to attend and shoot as many different types as you can. May be an AR member in your area can lead you to where the local shoots are. May be they will let you shoot their rifles, but don't expect any one to want to shoot yours. Best of luck to you. May all you're endeavors be fun.

I shoot lots of big bore stuff probably as much as anybody on here. I wouldn't own a rifle that cut me 1/3 of the time. That just sucks all the fun out of shooting. Proper technique, and proper fit are most important. Weight and stock design help too. I would learn to shoot it properly or sell it to someone else. Scope cuts can be nasty. I would not want any part of it period.

I watched your video and your losing control of the gun. Try squaring your body more into the target, rolling your shoulders and placing the stock more into the center of your chest. Closer to your neck. Roll the upper part of your body with the recoil. Both feet should never move under recoil just the upper part of your body. I wish I could show you personally in 15 minutes you'd be fine.-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
I watched your video and your losing control of the gun. Try squaring your body more into the target, rolling your shoulders and placing the stock more into the center of your chest. Closer to your neck. Roll the upper part of your body with the recoil. Both feet should never move under recoil just the upper part of your body. I wish I could show you personally in 15 minutes you'd be fine.-Rob

For relative newbies to big bores like myself I ask this question. When you say, "Try squaring your body more into the target", is this to say your front foot should not be as far forward as the shooter in the video? I.e., pull it further back thus pulling the left shoulder back and opening up the body?

Thanks for your response.

First of all I think you need to admit to yourself that you are a stock crawler. I only ever had one rifle cut me and I had to get rid of for fear I would flinch at the time I needed to make a shot (it was a .270). As far as getting a Lottt goes I had one built by Wayne at AHR and I asked him to make it weigh 10 1/2 lbs, it is very nice to shoot. I dont have a scope on the rifle as I had some trouble finding the rite one to fit the CZ action. It now has a NECG peep and it is just great. I brain shot a in bound elephant with it just fine. I have experience with a scope on a 416 without any problems and I dont see that if I found one for the Lott it would be a issue either so long as it held together for the recoil. About a year ago there were several conversations here about scopes not holding up to the recoil on a Lott. As far as you handling recoil goes stand up behind sticks use a sisy pad at first and you will find the more you shoot it the less you are bothered by the recoil, only shoot it 5 or 6 shots at a session and eventualy you will be able to shoot it without the pad. I found that happened for me somewhere around 200 rounds. I dont shoot light loads as it seemes to me that it dont make any sence in my attempt to handle the recoil. There's my two bits love it or leave it.

quote:

About a year ago there were several conversations here about scopes not holding up to the recoil on a Lott.

Double-D,
yes, and over on Terminals there have been some good reports on Nikons holding up where the Leupolds were being repaired. Most of those Nikons are built around a 4" eye-relief. I go one further and keep recommending an "unnecessary" but luxurious five inch eye-relief. Nikon Slughunters (a tough, shotgun scope with clear glass and 1.65-5 power magnification) and Nikon Inlines (3-9 blackpowder scopes) have 5" eye-relief. Both are TOUGH, as are the Nikon Monarchs, either African 1-4 or Monarch compact 2-8. There are a lot of good scopes out there, but these Nikon are a lot of bang for the buck.

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
I watched your video and your losing control of the gun. Try squaring your body more into the target, rolling your shoulders and placing the stock more into the center of your chest. Closer to your neck. Roll the upper part of your body with the recoil. Both feet should never move under recoil just the upper part of your body. I wish I could show you personally in 15 minutes you'd be fine.-Rob

Thanks Rob. I will give that a go. If I am ever in Las Vegas, I will look you up.

Your feet should be almost equal to each other, shoulder width apart facing the target almost in the same position as a combat pistol shooter uses in the Isoceles position. However, you will want to have a little more weight forward on one foot.This is NOT a shotgun or subgun shooting position!. The main thing is your feet feel extremely stable and you can flex at the knees and pivot easily from the hips. You should never feel like your losing your footing under the recoil. Mount the gun as I've described closer to the center of your chest and inside of the crook of your arm where you usually shoot light recoilling guns. If possible, have a friend grab your barrel and push hard on it backwards and forewards. He should not be able to cause you to lose your footing and your resistance to his shoves should be maximum. Now your maximally stable. Now get a good sight picture, holding your face on the gun hard and with a tight grip on the forearm. Your actually using isometric resistance on the gun. Your arm position is very tight to resist the backwards recoil. Forearm Elbow sideways and locked solid to oppose the recoil When you shoot let your upper body "roll" at the waist Your head should NEVER move on that stock and you maintain full control. Try this appoach. Again its harder to describe than to show people.-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Your feet should be almost equal to each other, shoulder width apart facing the target almost in the same position as a combat pistol shooter uses in the Isoceles position. However, you will want to have a little more weight forward on one foot.This is NOT a shotgun or subgun shooting position!. The main thing is your feet feel extremely stable and you can flex at the knees and pivot easily from the hips. You should never feel like your losing your footing under the recoil. Mount the gun as I've described closer to the center of your chest and inside of the crook of your arm where you usually shoot light recoilling guns. If possible, have a friend grab your barrel and push hard on it backwards and forewards. He should not be able to cause you to lose your footing and your resistance to his shoves should be maximum. Now your maximally stable. Now get a good sight picture, holding your face on the gun hard and with a tight grip on the forearm. Your actually using isometric resistance on the gun. Your arm position is very tight to resist the backwards recoil. Forearm Elbow sideways and locked solid to oppose the recoil When you shoot let your upper body "roll" at the waist Your head should NEVER move on that stock and you maintain full control. Try this appoach. Again its harder to describe than to show people.-Rob

Ditto.
Add: All fingers right and left are death gripping, except the trigger finger.
Gotta learn to grip tight with all fingers except trigger finger.
The gray matter controlling the trigger finger is inordinately large on the motor homunculus of the accomplished bigbore shooter.

If you let the recoil pad settle too far laterally you will know it, and have bruises to show for it! Pectoral muscles not biceps should nestle the butt, as RGB says.

Do pushups for bigbore shooting conditioning.
Like Ricardo Montalban in "Wrath of Kahn" Star Trek movie.

Rip brings up a good point. You don't need to be a superman, but upper body/ arm strength is a key component of recoil management. Make your arms work for you and oppose the recoil energy. I'm glad RIP reiterated the death grip part too. I get most of my exercise these days shooting reasonably heavy guns offhand a lot. Usually 1hr sessions 3-4 times a week. Im actually stronger now than when i was in my 20's from all this shooting.I hate doing pushups, but shooting offhand at little targets, not that puts a smile on my face.

Thanks Rob, I think I've got the picture in my head now of what you're after. Next day at the range I'll give it a go.

Rob, I'm glad to hear about this, too. I've noticed the same thing in my shooting, having a tight grip yet leaving the trigger finger relaxed or at least out of the concious loop.
No one has mentioned it, but I had wondered what PH's or knowledgible shooters thought if they noticed my arms seeming to be tight or stiff when sighting in over a landcruiser hood at a target 100 yards off? It is not the same grip as when shooting a 270.

Last year I had a bedding problem with one of the "new" 416's. I thought that I might have fixed it overnight. The next day we traded off rifles for the shooter/stalker to be carrying the 'good' 416. We stopped at noon to test the other 416. It was hard to get comfortable on the hood that day and I noticed my arms being tight. The first two shots were 1 3/4 horizontal, then the third shot split them, making three in a line. (bedding was not fixed). A PH friend thought I'd be happy, but a rifle with a group that sloppy shouldn't be shot out at 250-300 yards. There are enough varibles at that range already. I asked him what was acceptable in his eyes and he said his double does 4 inches, but then he keeps shots to 100 yards or less.

The main thing is that if you use the shooting position, stance and grip I've described you will never get wacked by a scope. If your head doesn't move, the scope can't cut you. -Rob

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Your feet should be almost equal to each other, shoulder width apart facing the target almost in the same position as a combat pistol shooter uses in the Isoceles position. However, you will want to have a little more weight forward on one foot.This is NOT a shotgun or subgun shooting position!. The main thing is your feet feel extremely stable and you can flex at the knees and pivot easily from the hips. You should never feel like your losing your footing under the recoil. Mount the gun as I've described closer to the center of your chest and inside of the crook of your arm where you usually shoot light recoilling guns. If possible, have a friend grab your barrel and push hard on it backwards and forewards. He should not be able to cause you to lose your footing and your resistance to his shoves should be maximum. Now your maximally stable. Now get a good sight picture, holding your face on the gun hard and with a tight grip on the forearm. Your actually using isometric resistance on the gun. Your arm position is very tight to resist the backwards recoil. Forearm Elbow sideways and locked solid to oppose the recoil When you shoot let your upper body "roll" at the waist Your head should NEVER move on that stock and you maintain full control. Try this appoach. Again its harder to describe than to show people.-Rob

+1

This definitely works.

Mods- You guys should make this a sticky as it comes up frequently.-Rob