Hi Guys:

I am still trying to learn the ropes about Double Rifles. I am taking the advice that I read previously on the board about trying to buy a new double rather than a used Double of unknown quality.

What is your opinion on Heym Double Rifles. No automatic safety to worry about. I like the shadow line on the cheek piece. The one I saw had a beautiful XXX stock. They seem to run about 2 grand more than Merkel or Kreighoff for the standard Safari Rifle.

I seem to be running into Merkel's Kreighoffs and now Heym..... and I all ready know how you feel about the Blaser S2.

I would probably go with a 470 NE.... only because I have a 458 Lott for my upper end. I don't think I can handle more than that recoil...LOL

Opinons Please....

Jim. P

They are very nice but they tend to be rather trim and light for caliber.

I cannot help but feel that you'd get more gun for your dollar if you went with Butch Searcy.

Ditto on Butch Searcy! You"ll be glad you talked to him._Rob

I don't agree. A Double is supposed to feel like a svelt woman, something that is easy to handle and looks it.

IMO Searcys are very clubby and awkward. Too thick in the action. The fat chick that takes a couple of beers to appreciate. I just can't get buy those glued on barrels either.

I also believe the Heym will have a greater resale value and a higher percentage of value later.

Mickey,
I disagree...

a searcy is like the chick that CAN take a few beers, and then lay one on ya....
Say Nichole Kidman as Searcy and

cameran diaz as a heym....

both would be fun to shoot, but give me the 6 foot redhead... you can keep the prissy blonde

btw, butch's barrels aren't glued.. that would be the guy that owns rigby.

"Thick in the action"... again, Niki vs Cameron.... Niki's got hips that can birth a baby or play pool all night.... cameron looks like an alterboy from the back...

to each his own!!

jeffe

[ 10-23-2003, 06:55: Message edited by: jeffeosso ]

Jeffe

Methinks more like Jennifer Lopez than Nicole Kidman.

How does Searcy fasten the barrels on then? Also does Rigby still do that? I saw the rifle they donated to SCI about 4 years ago and was embarrassed for them and the poor schmuck that bought it. What a piece of ugly.

I know the importer of Heym very well. I like them, and will be ordering one in .375 Flanged

Aleko

PAHunter,

I think you have graduated.

Heyms are significantly better than a Merkel, Searcy, or Kreighoff. I used a Heym quite a bit and loved it (see photo below).

The fact is that they are, indeed, lighter than other doubles, even in .470. As I said, I like them very much but I have heard complaints from many as to the felt recoil. It's not for everyone, in this regard.

Mickey,
Butch solders his barrels, just like the ang'lish do. The only person I know of using hightech materials is the guy that runs "river rouge" or something like that, which is the same guy that own the rigby name.

butch's guns are NOT narrow at the hip... a fact I myself apprecaiate... little jennie or niki, both of those girls could split a sixpack with ya...

Ah, if a searcy is a kidman

the heym is like a
calistia flockhart... that girls needs a cheesburger...

in all honestly, I got to mess about with a merkel in 470... the merkel felt like a 410 shotgun action, it was that small, recoil wasn't bad, but I was shooting richards 577 as well that day, so I don't think I would even have noticed my 500.

an, dang it all, you can NOT order a heym or merkel to fit you, in the caliber YOU want, with the stuff YOU want, for anywhere near the same money. When you have gorilla arms and a long neck, this matters.

jeffe

Heyms are light enough that a heym in 500 ne would kick the snot out of me.

B.Searcys are not, nor have they ever been glued together! The barrels are threaded inti the Mono-Bloc then soldered together just the same way all Britt doubles are. The glueing thig was done by Rogue River, useing the glue that was used to stick the ceramic heat sheald to the space shuttle! That made the regulation a one shot afair. NOT GOOD! The Rigby today, made by the same person who ha Rogue River, are soldered in the normal manner.

As far as the Heym, they are strong, and well made. though light for chambering, they are well ballanced, and if they fit you will not be unduely recoil prone. The Searcy, however, will be made to fit you, a little binefit that is worth something. The ejector dis-connect is no longer on the Heym, I think! they had some trouble with that little item.

I think you will be fine with the Heym, if it fits you, if not, then the Searcy is a lot of double for the money! I like the Heyms, but the Searcy is probably a better buy in the long run, especially for an American! If any thing goes wrong with Butch is only a phone call away!


[ 10-23-2003, 18:40: Message edited by: MacD37 ]

For the price of a Heym I want something custom fitted to me. (I'm sort of oddly built, I think considering how poor most factory rifles and all factory shotguns fit me) I think the last German rifle I liked was a Mauser 98.

Hi Guys:

Thank you so much for the information so far.

I just love the comparison between the ladies the fine double rifles.....LOL

Especially Alley McBeal... she needs more than a cheesburger to fill her out.

I was handeling a 470 NE Heym, it felt fast and ballanced like a 20 guage Fox Sterlingworth.

It was my neighbors who just moved out of state. I couldn't seperate him from his fine rifle before he left.

Now what were you saying about tall red heads that like doubles...???

Regards... Jim P.

Interesting string, but you boys have got this barrel construction business ALL farked up. There are three common methods of joining the barrels and forming the lumps of a double gun.

The best known (and the best understood) is chopper-lump. Made possible by the advent of compressed fluid steel, the barrels of most nitro proof English double rifles are of this type. The barrel blanks are forged with an integral flange on the bottom of the breech end from which the lumps are formed. Since the flange hanging off the end of it makes the barrel look something like an ax (a "chopper" in Britishese) the "chopper-lump" name stuck. The barrels are joined by brazing the two flange halves together and soldering the tubes together at the muzzle. The lumps are then formed from the joined flanges. When the barrels are finished, the ribs (if it is to have them and some don't) are soldered on. The ribs have nothing whatsoever to do with holding the barrels together on any double.

Prior to the appearance of the chopper-lump method, the barrels of doubles were joined by simply brazing the lumps (which were separately formed) onto the breech end of the barrels and soldering at the muzzles. This is known variously as "dove-tail lump", "shoe-lump", and other names. There are several methods of brazing the lumps on but the result is the same - brazed on lumps as opposed to integral.

The most recent type, and by far the most common in current production, is mono-bloc. The lumps and what appears to be the first 3 1/2 inches or so of the barrels are milled out of a single block of steel (the "bloc"). Holes are then bored through the bloc and the barrel tubes are turned down on the breech end so that, when inserted into the bloc, they reach all the way through it when the shoulder makes contact. The barrels are then secured in place, usually by welding at the join and in the rim seat although sometimes they are simply tinned in place.

Chopper-lump barrels are said to be the strongest because the lumps are integral to the barrels. They are certainly the most expensive. Mono-blocs get no respect, largely because this method has been used to build so many cheap doubles. However, Butch Searcy insists that monos are just as strong as chopper-lump, and he is correct - the lumps are integral to the bloc (they are not soldered or brazed on) and that is what counts.

In theory, brazing on the lumps is the weakest method. As stated above, most English doubles have chopper-lump barrels. However, some English makers continued using the shoe-lump method with fluid steel barrels and some offered both. In my observation this was particularly true of (uh, Mickey, are you SURE?) Westley Richards. I've seen many of Westley's best droplock and sidelock, original NITRO, double rifles with shoe-lump barrels and otherwise identical models with chopper-lump. Westley built quite a few doubles for high-pressure rimless cartridges, mostly .318 and .425. I've seen several .425s with shoe-lump barrels and I've never seen a .318 that wasn't. A good friend of mine had a best droplock .318 with shoe-lump barrels. In theory, you would think that a double rifle built with brazed-on lumps and chambered for a high pressure rimless cartridge is a really dumb idea. In reality, I've never heard of a problem with loose lumps on any of these rifles and the reputation of these pre-war Westleys remains among the very best.

My point is that, if the rifle is from a quality maker to begin with, it doesn't matter which method was used - all work fine. Of the rifles mentioned, the Merkel and the Heym are, if I remember correctly (Mac will know about the Merkel), chopper-lump. The Krieghoff is mono-bloc. Butch uses mono-bloc barrels unless the chopper-lump upgrade is chosen.

With that out of the way, back to the original question. In the general sense, I agree with Mickey. My own double rifles reflect my personal bias - English and chopper-lump. Of the rifles mentioned, I agree with Will, the Heym would probably be my pick, although the Merkel or the Krieghoff would both give good service. The Merkels are good rifles and I am fond of their 9.3s but, in .470, the proportions are all wrong to me. I've shot the Krieghoff a lot and have a great deal of respect for it. They are comfortable to shoot and are generally extremely accurate, but the "safety" is an absolute deal-killer.

I wouldn't consider the Searcy.

Handling dynamics are extremely important if you are to get the most out of a double rifle. Handle all three of them as much as you can and at the same time, if possible. The one that feels the best will probably be the best choice.
-----------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

[ 10-24-2003, 12:28: Message edited by: 400 Nitro Express ]

400 Nitro Express,

Dang, an excellent, educational post.

I hear the 9.3's are light and handy, though I have no experience with them, but then I have no "need" for them either.

As you say, the Kreighoff's safety/cocker is just too much. The Merkel's barrels are way too heavy and balances poorly, for me. I feel the same about the Chapius, and the opening lever "tab," whatever it is really called, is too small for emergency use.

If I were rich, I would order a double with less drop at the heel (and higher mounted sights), as I can use the open sights on a straight stocked bolt-action just fine. It is the "mandatory" drop at the heel of all the doubles that makes the recoil so unnecessarily abusive.

[ 10-24-2003, 16:08: Message edited by: Will ]

400 Nitro Express:

WOW..... Thank you so much on the education of barrels on doubles. I REALLY never knew what Chopper Lump meant. I knew that option was more expensive but that was it.

Again, thanks for the Great Post....

Regards..

Jim P.

400

Great post. I will file it away. I have heard the term 'shoe lump' but never understood what it meant. I will have to look for it now.

Thanks.

PS; I do like the Mickey's taste in women though and prefer 2 lumps to one.

Very good post Mark! My friends, Mark is the best sourse of enfromation you will find on double rifles, anyplace. I don't know why he doesn't write a book! I'd be first in line for a copy!

Mickey1 What I meant by soldered together just like the Britts are was, that the barrels are soldered together from the breach out to the muzzle the same way! One thing Mark (400 Nitro Express)forgot is the breach is not the only place most doubles are brazed. The forend hangers, are also brazed on, which gives you a solid joint at the breach, and in the middle of the barrel assembly. The muzzle wedge is soldered in so it can be heated and moved in, and out, and the two barrels slightly twisted, for regulateing the barrels. After regulation is completed, then the ribs , both top, and bottom, and the final sight ramp are soldered in place! The elevation is regulated by fileing in the sights. Most Mono-blocs have sweated in barrel butts,to a solid ONE PIECE Block of steel, which is stronger than two halves of the block brazed together, IMO! None the less the chopper lumps are the PC thing to have, however it is not better, just harder to make, hence the price premium! but Searcy's are threaded into the bloc, then the seam tig welded on the surface. The barrels assembly beyond the mono-bloc is done the same way all doubles are done, by soldering!

[ 10-25-2003, 00:11: Message edited by: MacD37 ]

Mac, I don't weld up the seams where the barrels join
the monoblock. They are simply fitted very well.
To all that has for yrs. tried comparing my $7000.00
Field Grade rifle with much more expensive rifles.
apples to oranges I mean. This won't be possible in
the future, I have eliminatied the Field Grade, and
now my entry level rifle is called the P.H. Model. This rifle is just slightly less ornate than the Deluxe Model. Which you should be comparing to the Heym anyway. The 470 N.E. has a smaller action, than what you have seen in the past, and the 500 N.E. is slightly larger. Both rifles as all my rifles past and present balance at the hinge pin which is the proper balance point. By popular demand I have rounded up the back of the actions as well as the front. I have also made the grip area much slimmer. I added an articulated front trigger as standard to the Deluxe models. Both models have adjustable elevation rear sights that are very ridged once adjustment has been made. My new P.H. model selling at $9500.00 has less profit for me than the Field Grade, but I was tired of listing to people that expected more than what I could deliver at the price of the Field Grade. I have studied the compitition and find them wanting, both in quality and function to the P.H. rifle. And I say this not as a want to be expert or the used car salesman but a Mfg. If you have any questions call or e-mail, I would be happy to debate anything I say, and will stand by it.

You go, Butch! Personally I hate to see the Field Grade fade away but "the customer is always right (even when being a complete idiot!)" Good luck with the PH model. Maybe if I just sold off the entire safe-full . . .

Butch

Now those are rifles I will look forward to.

Dang it Butch...
now your bottom line has ejectors and better triggers?

Damn fine looking rifle, btw.

http://searcyent.com/fieldgrade.htm

I need to sell all my boom sticks and get the damn 470 on the way.

jeffe

Hi Guys:

Does anybody know where there is a Searcy Double Rifle in Northeast PA that I can actually look at?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Regards..
Jim P.

400 Nitro Express,
Thanks for the info on the shoe lump.

Mac did not respond to your question on the Merkel. They are indeed chopper lump.

Now, just to keep things fair, equal time for my pet Merkel:

The Merkel 470 NE is not clubby. It balances on the hinge pin, just as Butch Searcy says all double rifles should.

Also, the action is indeed a bit bigger than a .410 shotgun action! The rifle does have good weight in the action and barrels and butt, and is a well balanced 10.75 pounds, and comfortable to shoot.

The Greener third fastener and side clips on the Purdey double bolted Anson&Deeley boxlock of the Merkel, non-ejector, non-automatic safety SXS is confidence inspiring.

The Merkel is strong, fool proof, and as traditional as can be, and a great starter for those wishing to cut their teeth on a 470 NE double, assuming Ye Olde English puffery is ignored. Composite group for 4 shots is routinely under 2" at 50 meters, and regulated with the Trophy Bonded Sledge Hammer solid factory load from Federal. It is easy to duplicate the zero with hand loaded Woodleigh softs and solids, so readily available also.

MSRP may be over $10,000 now but they can be had for about $9,000 new from your friendly gun dealer via GSI in Alabama, the importer.