Yesterday a friend took his new 1895 Win in 405 out for a little load development. He was loading 15gr Re 15 with a Woodleigh 300 weldcore SN. He got the loads from Rifle and reduced the 56gr to 52 as an initial trial. On the first round he watched the rifle selfdestruct. He was lucky he wears thick glasses. It blew the top off the chamber and bulged the receiver,etc. he pulled the remaining loads and weighed them -all OK. He is an experienced reloader and a guy who pays attention. Any ideas?

The first place to look is the powder; this is a classic description of too much of a too fast powder -- usually due to a mix-up.

Glad your friend is OK.

jim dodd

According to Quickload, this load is well below maximum-27000psi and 1950fps. 56 gr is 32000psi and 2150fps. The published load was 56 grs.
I think your analysis is correct on it's face, however the data are contradictory.

Dr. Duc,
Let me guess he loaded a 0.411 diameter bullet into the 405 Win which has a .408 bore? No wait a minute that is not so. The Winnie has the larger .411 bore so that could not have been it.

Woodleigh does not make a .416 bullet in a 300 grain weight so that can't be it either.

Can you post pictures of the blown-up peices of the rifle so we can see the fractures. This could help understand if the action was truly overstressed or if there was a material problem. The pictures will need to be VERY good quality. You mentioned that the top of the chamber is blown out. Does this mean the top of the barrel immediately in front of the action is missing? You also mentioned that he action is bulged. There is very little of the action that engaged in resisting pressure that could bulge. So are you saying that the portion of the action that the barrel threads into is bulged?

I have a M95 in 405 too (an original by the way). I have loaded mine a great deal hotter than your friend's load would indicate. Mine lost accuracy (not something it has in spades at it's best) at higher velocities than the factory so I went back down to 2220 fps with the 300 gr pill. So I find it hard to believe that this failure is design related.

Either your friend stuck a larger diameter bullet, MUCH heavier bullet, or wrong powder into the case. If none of those fits, are you sure that the barrel was not SERIOUSLY obstructed? Lastly, are you certain that this rifle is actually chambered in 405 Win?

I expect the powder confusion was to load some quick burner thinking it was the appropriate powder.

Shooting a slightly fatter bullet usually does not raise pressure to the kaboom level -- which would indicate something like a blocked bore.

jim dodd

Doctor Duc---

If the chamber is ruptured it means a defect in the barrel. (overloads blow the case and the action, not the barrel).

Microscopic examination will show where the failure started and why.

I can refer you to an expert firearms engineer with a metallurgist as a partner if you need it.

I'd just about bet the failure started in the extractor cut and is the result of sulfur stringers in the steel.

I am thinking it could very well be a defective barrel it has been known to happen before. Or there could of been excessive grease in the chamber.

I haven't seen the gun. He told me about it at lunch yeterday and showed me the powder residue on his fingers. He says the top of the chamber is gone and the action is bulged from side to side as well as blown out the bottom. "Junk" he says. He is in the process of contacting Winchester. He's not a litigeous guy and will take credit for his own mistakes but I suspect there will be a metallurgical exam of some sort done.
As for the bullet size, he told me a 300gr woodleigh-don't know all the specs. He was substituting for the Alaskan used in the load in Rifle. That ,by the way, is 58gr of Re15. I looked it up this morning.

I surely hope he will get an analysis privately before sending it to Winchester, if he just sends it in they may "lose it".

It will most likely not make any difference who looks at it, before Winchester. They have a disclaimer that states the rifle is only warentied for "FACTORY AMMO" designed for the rifle!

I would almost bet my next retirement check, he accidently subsituted something like 4831, or even slower powder. Slow powders are dangerous with light loads, and contrary to what was said above most blow ups on leveraction rifles the walls of the chamber is blown out, and the threaded area of the action bulged! A good example of this blow up is pictured on page 143 of P.O. Ackley's volum I, Handbook For Shooters & Handloaders

I'd check the can of powder used. I doubt it was RL-15.-Rob

The bullets on the bench were Hornaday and Woodleigh both for the 405. The powder was Re 15 unless Alliant made a mistake. It was a new can. There was a can of Re 7 on the back of the bench but the load still should have been within limits for the caliber even if the Re7 was used. The remaining rounds were pulled, the powder identified (it appeared identical to Re15) and the charges weighed . The bore was inspected before fireing. The KB occured on the second shot with the shot noted on the target after the first shot. There was no bore obstruction. Alll loads were measured by an Accuescale before loading and again when pulled.
The failure occured at the extractor groove and a part of the threaded portion of the barrel blew off ( as suggested in an earlier post) as well as a portion distal to the threads. The junk is being sent for examination by a metallurgist.

Glad your friend is OK. I am largely ignorant in the ways of reloading (I load for my .416 and that is it) but could htis be one of those "detonation" incidents resulting from too little powder in to olarge of a case?????

Best Regards,

JohnTheGreek

JTG, that is the most likely sceenario if loading is what caused this blow up! Too little of a slow powders will sometimes blow hell out of a rifle, and are far more dangerous than say most over loads. With this case capacity of the 405 Win being 76.89 grs of water, a load of 52.0 grs of R-15 may fit in the case twice, a double load! I don't have a 405 Win case here to test it, but it might! Seems unlikely however! Does anyone know if he was useing any type of filler? If not, or if the wrong kind, the low load of slow powder is more than likely the culprit!

The 1895 design is not as strong as some seem to think. The new ones would be deffinetly better, because of the steel, but I had a 95 that was origenally factory chambered for 30-06, and it had to be loaded down or it would show very high pressure sign. The action is still the same today, except for the steel.

With the blow starting in the extractor groove, it could have been cut too deep, and failed, but the crack would naturally start in the weakist place, no matter the real cause!

DR. DUC, please keep us in the loop on this one!

MacD37,

You could not double charge a 405 Winnie if the single charge weight was 52 gr of Rel 15. I haven't tried it, but I figure you could not get more than about 64 -65 grains of Rel 15 to really fit into the 405 and still seat a bullet properly.

Reloader 15 is a slow powder for the likes of the 405 Winchester too.

I load mine with IMR 4895. My load was 53.5 grains of IMR 4895 with a 300 gr Woodleigh. Since Hornady now makes bullets I am changing over to theirs, as they are a much more cost effective fodder than Woodleigh.

Interesting. I ran quick load with 52 grs of Rl-7 and a 300 gr , .410 bullet and it was marginal in the .405 win.. At 53 grs it was overpressure, but the pressure limit was only 40K. I'm sure the win 95 can take more than that. I own an original 30-06 and also have to load it way down.
One issue not addressed, was were the cases TOO LONG for this rifles chamber, Thus crimping the bullet and case into the chamber. He did check the case length before reloading didn't he?
Another possibility was that his balance was not calibrated correctly and read improperly. This has happened with digital balances before. Assuming neither of the above are true, It does seem that that the most likely root cause of the failure was a fault in the barrel which started at the extractor cut.-Rob

Robgunbuilder,
Excellent point with regard to case length!

Here is some load data that another gentlemen posted sometime ago:

"I received the following load data from Hornady regarding loads for the 405 Winchester.

The rifle is a new production M1895 USRAC.
Brass: Hornady
Primers: WLR
Barrel twist: 1:14
COL: 3.085"
Bullet: Hornady 300 gr soft point

Velocity: 1800 1900 2000 2100 2200 2250
Rel 7 36.4 39.4 42.5 45.5
H322 41.1 43.0 44.9
XMR2015 39.8 42.7 45.6 48.4 51.3
IMR3031 41.2 44.3 47.4 50.6
VIHT N133 43.0 45.4 47.8 50.2 52.6
H4895 44.9 47.3 49.7 52.2 54.6 55.8

Of course it is stated that you must start with the minimum load and slowly work your way up."

I looks as though Hornady does not load the Rel7 as hot as your Quickload simulation would suggest.
My IMR 4895 load seems to be a bit anemic too. My rifle chronographs at 2200 fps though.

In my reloading career which now spans 35 very carefull years, the only incident where I damn near blew myself up ( inadvertently ) was with a 22-250 AI I built on a VZ-24 action. I was shooting Meadow Grizzly's one fine day, when after a string, I observed serious smoke coming out of my gun and was unable to lift the bolt. After pounding it open, I observed the primer pocket was about TWICE it's normal size, the primer was gone, the bolt face was plasma torched and the case Head itself had flowed into the extractor cut on the bolt! After checking all the remaining rounds for the obvious culprits ( as done here),I found two cases that were about .050 longer than the chamber OAL. Thus, I was apparantly crimping the bullets into the case and producing extremely high pressures. I did alot of fire forming in those days and apparantly missed checking these case lengths. In a tight necked gun this is a certain recipe for disaster. I should point out that I have no reccolection of that case chambering with any difficulty! Come to think of it, I never did check the action for bolt lug set-back after this incident! The 1895's have alot of camming power and one could force such a case into the chamber.
I'm not saying this was the cause of the .405 KB, but a marginally hot load combined with a too long case for the chamber, could easily wreck a 1895.-Rob

Robingunbuilder, I don't think the case length was checked as they were new, previously unloaded cases (I think). I had a 6mm Remington do a similiar thing to me about 12 yrs ago. It'll get checked.

Dr Duc. Too bad you can't do a cerrosafe cast on that chamber. Even new brass could easily be too long for a dimensionally short chamber. Given the rarity of the .405 win these days it would not surprise me if the cases were too long. I've run into this with the .500 Jeffery recently.-Rob

That may be possible. I'll ask the owner of the gun tomorrow.

Robingunbuilder, I got more info today. The brass was once fired , untrimmed. It chambered snuggly but the shooter put it down to "new gun and tight action". Looks like you may be in the ball park as to the cause. There is a chamber cast being done today.

Depending on how tight that chamber was made, It might not take too much case/bullet compression to turn a marginally hot load into a bomb. It would be easy for even a very experienced reloader to make that mistake. Many have!-Rob

After all is said and done it looks like RobGB. Hit on the cause. The chamber was a mite tight and the brass long. BTW, it did blow out the ejector cut.

Listen to J Belk, not trying to push something on him, but he's the man to get ahold of.
Don't try to guess, just contact Jack, he's offered to give you some phone numbers.

Dr. Duc- Glad to be of service.! Glad no one got hurt. Not long ago we had a very experienced shooter at the local range blow up a MINT 6.5X55 Swedish mauser. It blew the action. I have what remains of the case and it apparantly was the same problem. The case had been reloaded a few times and the shooter "thought" is was fine without ever checking the length. He chambered a round with difficulty and the gun blew. People often think that new factory brass is always trimmed properly and safe. Not so! It may only take one crimped neck to blow a gun. Bottom line is always check Cartridge lengths particularily after a few reloads. This is extremely important in cartridges like the 220 swift that tend to flow alot of brass due to the shoulder angle and operate at high pressure..-Rob

It will be interesting to see the matalurgist report,as well as what Winchester is going to do.

I had an older, but fired less than 50 rounds Smith revolver blow up with a Federal factory .38 Spcl load. No barrel obstruction, the case split the cylinder and blew the topstrap into low orbit.

Smith wanted the gun back, but would NOT replace it. And would not return it either . So I kept it as a paperweight.

Federal was interested in the production codes from the box of ammo, and that was it.

At least your buddy wasn't hurt!!

FN in MT