Would a load in 416 400 grain bullet at 2350FPS with less that 5000ft lbs be better or a 350 grain bullet at 2600FPS with over 5000ft lbs.?

"Better" on what?

Grizzly?
Lion?
Leopard?
Elephant?
Cape buffalo?
Hippo?

My rule of thumb is, pachyderms get the heavier bullet.

George

You might try looking at the

Terminal Bullet Performance thread here in big bores--

they have been discussing that question for about 179 pages now.

Lots of good info there.

SSR

For cape buffalo or ele. I have the thin skinned covered.

I would always go with the bigger bullet versus more velocity.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I would always go with the bigger bullet versus more velocity.

+1

465H&H

For one thing you are not comparing apples to apples. If, for example, you can "only" get 2350 ft/s with a 400 gr bullet, I doubt that 2600 ft/s is obtainable with a 350 gr bullet.

Ignoring that, go with the 400 gr bullet, as others have recommended.

If it is a Barnes bullet, TSX or solid, I suggest you drop down in bullet weight to the 350. It will shoot flatter and while it won't penetrate quite as much as the heavier bullet, you'll still have all the penetration you need. It it is a cup and core bullet, stick with the 400 grainer. Just my two cents.

Im planning to use the Barnes TSX and solids

I have always approached reloading with a view probably different from most. I have always looked for a load that was accurate in the rifle I was loading for. I generally started with a powder and load marked 'most accurate' and went from there up to at least 1 grain below max. If it did not prove to be an accurate load I then changed powders. When I achieved what I considered acceptable accuracy I quit. In all my years of reloading I have seldom had a rifle that did not shoot under 1 1/2". I then hunted with this load and never found any African game that did not succumb to it. For some reason most seem to think if it is not a plus maximum load it will not work on those tough African animals. I have found an accurately place shot with a Nosler Partition (which I have shot almost exclusively for over 50 years) generally brought the animal down immediately. I have lost only 4 game animals in Africa in 8 safaris and all were from poor shooting not cartridge performance.

I would always opt for the heavier bullet even in a monolithic, velocity has little to no effect on Buffalo or elephant as far as I can tell.

If one wants to use a 350 BX on buffalo in his .416 I have seen them work well enough, but the 400 gr. BX penetrates better on the second shot as they go away from you. The 350 BX may give one a bit flatter trajectory but I have never considered trajectory important in a DG rifle..All of the big bores are good to about 250 yards with a top line hold if sighted properly, and I have only shot one buffalo at 225 yards, the rest were at 50 to 100 yards..the 225 yds buffalo was with Ph AJ Van Heerden who named him the Teapot bull, at the shot his head went down and he tipped over dead "just like a tea pot pouring tea" according to AJ. That bull never knew what hit him..The rifle was a .416 Rem with a North Fork 400 gr. soft.

Ok Ray

If a 416 350 mono gives complete penetration and a 416 400gr gives the same-and velocity doesnt matter- then is there a difference in effectiveness between the 2 loads?

SSR

I'll probably be taken to task on this one for mixing and matching but when I use my 416 Rigby, I load the 350gr TSX to 2600 and 400gr Banded Solids to just under 2500 (roughly speaking as I don't have my load data in front of me). In my rifle, the two bullets shoot to the same point of impact, or close to it, at 100 yards which is usually a long shot on DG. Sighting the rifle for 1" high at 100 yards, I can hold dead on at 200 and be inside point blank range.

Depending on what I'm hunting and what my PH wants, I will load the 400gr solids in the mag with the 350gr TSX on top. Has worked well for me so far on 2 buffalo. Took 1 lion with the 350 TSX load, and 1 hippo with the 400 gr solids. Have also taken a Kamchatka Brown Bear with the 350gr TSX load.

With the faster 350 TSX, the load shoots flatter than a 300gr TSX in 375 H&H at around 2525. Flatter is not really the point. The point is that it shoots "as flat as" the 375. IMO, this gives me a better compromise "plains game" rifle than the 375, and a better DG rifle than the 375.

Haven't taken an Elephant with the 416 although I wouldn't hesitate to do so if something happened to my 500 NE. Obviously, 400gr Solids on Jumbo. I would also utilize the quick detach option on the scope for Ele's.

Just my $.02.

I have read a lot of the articles written by the pros and they all recomend bullets with a sectional density of .300 or higher. They hunt elephant for a living and I would not hesitate to utilize their experience. An elephant is the absolute last animal I would take chances on. A lost and wounded animal would be dangerous and costly indeed.

When I book my hunt I will probably annoy the crap out of my PH asking him a myriad of questions such as these.

My standard load for the .416 Rigby is a 350 gr Barnes X at 2700 fps. Have taken smaller game through Gemsbok, Hartebeast, and Bison. Killed one Cape Buffalo with it. Have not hunted anything larger than that.

A single side shot on the Bison blew a good sized piece of rib from the impact side completely through the animal.

One shot on the Buf entered the right rear thigh and smashed the femur. It continued through the entire gut and chest cavity lodging under the skin of the front of the chest. Have recovered no other bullets from game as they were pass throughs.

I would not suggest the load for use on El ... but it is just fine for anything less than that.

What Load For DG? Well like George asks right up front, What DG? Leopard is not the same as elephant. Buffalo not the same as Lion. Match the right bullet for the mission at hand! Seems logical to me.

Eyeman asks bullet weight vs energy, no particular mission at hand. First eyeman, throw the energy thing out the window, it's rather meaningless. Energy don't kill things, bullets do.

I see a bit further down we move to buffalo and eles. OK..... Some go Heavy, some go Lighter faster.

I am not a big fan of super high velocity in most cases, it's just not needed with some of todays modern bullets. But to say that velocity does not have an impact is very wrong, it does, I have seen it many times. But, you have to have a bullet that is conducive to working and transferring trauma without sacrificing penetration at these higher velocities. Sacrifice penetration, not good. Most excellent designed flat nose solids these days like velocity, more velocity, deeper penetration and they hit things harder than lower velocity. North Fork Solids, CEB BBW#13 Solids in particular. While you don't suffer a penetration issue at 2000-2100 fps, 2400 fps hits harder up front, noticeably harder, and will drive deeper. In addition one absolutely has to consider twist rates in 416s with 400s vs 350-380s. Lower velocity 400s do NOT stabilize as well in slower twist rates as the 350-380s. Fact. Want to truly stabilize a 400, you need 1:12 twist rates at lower velocities, 2300 fps and less. Velocity can stabilize a proper meplat solid, 65-70% of meplat, then velocity in 1:14 to 1:16 can help stabilize the 400s when you get to 2400 +. The 350s-380s stabilize great in 1:14 and running 2400 +. This is the very short version of this.

Buffalo--proper bullets like the CEB BBW#13 NonCons and North Fork CPS, velocity Hammers them to the dirt. To say it does not, is not correct. Penetration is not limited with velocity in Non Conventional expanding type bullets, it's increased. This is why they are Non Conventional. Hammers of Thor from Hell, almost feel sorry for the buff. In fact a tiny little 325 gr NonCon at 2500 fps in .416 caliber knocks buffalo in the dirt! Why do you need 400 gr for this? You don't. Don't believe me, and I am very very sure some of you do not, ask around, look around, go try one and see for yourself. It's already been done. I prefer larger, 458 to .500 caliber for all this work, as increase in caliber also hits them harder, but 416 does not come up short by any stretch.

Todays modern designed bullets you no longer have to have the heaviest bullet of caliber to do the job, and in almost ALL cases, do it far better than the old days and old bullets. Keep this in mind.

Michael

quote:

Hammers of Thor from Hell, almost feel sorry for the buff. In fact a tiny little 325 gr NonCon at 2500 fps in .416 caliber knocks buffalo in the dirt!

Is this a sales pitch? Water buffalo?

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Hammers of Thor from Hell, almost feel sorry for the buff. In fact a tiny little 325 gr NonCon at 2500 fps in .416 caliber knocks buffalo in the dirt!

Is this a sales pitch? Water buffalo?

No, not a sales pitch ole boy, not in the bullet business, and don't give a flying damn if you ever buy any!

And, to boot, I did not shoot buffalo with a 416, I said as much when I said I preferred 458 to .500.


A friend of my buddy Sam took a 330 gr .416 NonCon to Africa last year. These are his words, not mine.

quote:

Hey Sam:
Thanks again for loading the .416 Remington Mag rounds for me with the Non-Con bullets. As you know, I used them a few weeks ago on two cape buffalo I shot in Zimbabwe. The 330 grain bullets performed remarkably well. These cape buffalo were my 12th and 13th that I've taken and I have to say I have never seen buffalo go down so quickly. Both animals were shot from approximately 70-80 yards with classic behind the shoulder shots and both buffalo were down within 20 feet. I recovered the bullets from both animals and they performed as you thought they would. The vitals of both buffalo were absolutely shredded. You'll see from one photo that the heart from the big bull looked like a grenade had exploded in it. The bullets traveled through bone and tissue and were embedded under the hide on the opposite shoulder. I have killed buffalo with a .375 H&H, .416 Remington Mag, .450 Dakota. .450 Nitro Express, and a .577 Nitro Express with a variety of bullets and loads. Nothing I have used to date has performed like these bullets have. No dangerous follow up through thick jess bush was required which greatly pleased the PH, Trackers, Game Scout and Client! As always, no bullet construction will make up for poorly placed shots, however, I have witnessed the devastating efficiency of these bullets with proper shot placement and plan to use them in the future for all my dangerous game hunts. Thanks again.
Your friend,
Doug

I suppose you consider "Water Buffalo" easy pickings?


But I do like to hammer buffalo with 458 NonCons and 500 caliber NonCons myself.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
No dangerous follow up through thick jess bush was required

Just as well!

Cross L,
It makes no differnce on a broadside shot on buffalo as both will give an exit hole, but on a going away shot the 400 gr. will sometimes go on deep into the neck and on ocassion give complete penetration lengthwise whereas a 350 BX will invaribly stop in the shoulder area but I have only seen the 350 exit the shoulder on one or two occasion for what ever reason..I have seen it exit many times with the 400 gr. and of course a lot depends on what gets in the way of the bullet in its path.

Like I said, the 350 is good enough to kill buffalo, and I have never seen it fail, but I much prefer the 400 gr....I might just run into a rogue bull elephant or an old cow in menapause and I don't want to loaded with 350 gr. bullets. Just my personal choice.

Thats why the bullet companies make different weights cuz different folks have different strokes!

Shooting thru buff isn't a good idea anyway. Too much wounding goes on of other buffalo.

since you are using TSX Barnes for an expanding bullet you can go down to the 350 grains.

You will want a flatnosed solid for a followup or elephant, but as Michael mentioned, the 400 grain solids have stability issues in slower twist rifles like the 16.5" traditional twist for the Rigby. The 350 flatnose works fine in a 16.5" twist. So it's straightness will provide better straight penetration than a 400 grain unless you have a custom 12" twist rifle.

As for your velocities, the Rigby has a lot more to offer. The 350's will do 2800 fps nicely and more velocity is more trauma with these bullets. Find the highest velocity that your rifle is accurate with and watch its effect on Mr. Nyati.

If you want to use this rifle on other game, try the new Tipped-TSX in 350 grain. the .444 BC makes a 2800-fps combo shoot as flat as a 338WM. Sighted in at 2.6" high at 100 yards, it will only be 6" low at 300yards. You can do a lot of accurate hunting with that kind of flatness. Those new blue-tipped bullets are a beautiful design.