I noticed some loads with IMR 4350 and Rel 19 in the reloading pages. Has anyone acutally been able to load that much powder into a 500 A Square case? If so, did you get the claimed velocities?

I am very interested in getting a highly compressed safe load, which achieves 2500 fps with a 600 grain solid. I cannot get that with Rel 15, IMR 4064, etc. These powders all give pressure signs too early.

I want the heavy powder compression because recoil shoves the bullets into the cases. Since I crimp the bullets in place this additional seating of the bullet by recoil actually bulges the case mouth to the point that the round will not chamber!

I have both A Square brass with a case capacity of 143.7 gr. and fire formed Weatherby cases with which have a case capacity of 141.3 gr.

Your help is appreciated.

Hi 500 A2,
What is your barrel length to start with. The velocities that your mentioning are for a 26 inch barrel length. My 500 has a 23 inch barrel and I can get just over 2400 with the 600 grain bullet using RL 15 which is plenty.

470 Mbogo

Sadly I have no experience with .500 A-Square. However, the A-Square Manual lists loads a load with H4895, 117 gr., and the A-Square 600 gr. Dead Tough bullet, COAl of 3.740" (?) at only 2527 fps...in the Handloading Considerations three pages back under the drawing, they note "Powder Compression: yes."

The barrel length is 24.5 inches...measured. The faster burning powders are compressed, but not enough to keep bullets from seating deeper from recoil!

I want to know if you can get a case full of powder, seat the bullet and get the velocities that are published on the Reloading Page. I know for a fact that I cannot get 136 grains of IMR 4350 into any of my brass. I actually cannot get 134 grains into my brass. The most I have been able to fit into my brass so far is 130 grains. I was only using a 24" drop tube though.

DANGER!!!

BE ADVISED: Use data that is accompanied with pressure information!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The ONLY source of data is the A-Square handloading manual and EVEN THEN (!) start UNDER the beginning loads and USE A CHRONOGRAPH!

If you blindly use the reloading pages you are a dead man that hasn't happened yet!

I have a .500 A-Square with a 23.25" barrel. I have used 600 grain A-Square Lion Load, Monolithic Solid and Dead Tough, 600 grain Hawk, 0.035" and 0.065" thick jackets. ALL maximum velocities in my barrel (calced for length) are 2438fps. I got that velocity with 113 grains of RL-15! That is the beginning load in A-Squares handbook.

You are getting "pressure signs" 'cause those loads are so far over max as to be ridiculous and deadly!!

[ 11-16-2002, 09:41: Message edited by: Roger Rothschild ]

The loads you are talking about were developed in my 500 A2. At that time my rifle had a barrel with a very long throat .800+ the standard throat is only .375. I seated my bullets out to the lenth of my magazine 3.815 when I developed those loads. With a rifle with a standard throat you will not need nearly that much IMR 4350 to reach 2500 fps with a 600 grain bullet.

Don't try to use the loads I fired in my rifle, you will run into high pressures for sure in a rifle with a standard throat. For example I could only get a little over 2250 FPS with 120.0 grs. of RL15 behind a 600 gr.Barnes RN. bullet with that barrel. I tested RL15 later with a different barrel and you can see by my data the velocitys are much higher than they would have been in the barrel with the long throat.

A different barrel can make rifles chambered for the same cartridge different animals. For example Saeed used VN.550 to reach 2581 FPS. with a 750 gr. bullet in his 577 T.Rex. If I fired the load saeed used especially with the bullet and seating depth he used I would blow up my 577 T.Rex.

[ 11-16-2002, 03:19: Message edited by: Mitch ]

I have to agree with Roger. Be careful working with these max loads. Roger, I think this guy is looking for a combination maximum velocity / maximum case fill load.

I have had similar problems with both the 505 Gibbs and 500 AHR. The recoil is so great that the bullets override the crimp and bulge out the neck. My solution was similar to what you are looking for. That being to use a slow powder to fill the case. It works better than air, and that is about all I can say for it. My rifles had loose necks also, which allowed them to chamber badly bulged cases. My case necks bulged to about .547" they started out at .538".
There is a silver lining (if you are shooting soft points). You start with a round nose and end up with a flat point (very flat). Everyone seems to agree (me included) that a flat point shocks better.

These are stopping rifles afterall, not 1000 yard bench guns. I never noticed any pressure signs with the "reseated" bullets, either. This could very well, be due to the fact, that I am shooting low pressure cartridges to begin with. Muzzle velocities are around 2470 fps with 570 grain slugs.

[ 11-16-2002, 03:27: Message edited by: 500 AHR ]

John Ricks will make a crimping die that acts like the Lee factory crimp but is a much more high quality product. I wish I had the $100.00 for this custom made die, I will get it too but in the future.

I do know you can put in a case full of H-4831SC and compress it and get >2250fps. Beyond that I simply do not know. Mitch's rifle is what I wish I had but don't. Mine went to 2430-2440 and then at 113.5 grains it went down in velocity. I tried five loads at 114 just to see since RL-15 is the lowest pressure powder A-Sq lists, the velocities did not increase, only went back to 2440fps. This told me for my rifle I had hit the wall. Consequently I load now for 2385fps or so and I know I am well under max on this cartridge and I am good. If I want to go faster I'll have to spend the money for a Kreiger barrel with a long throat and 27" long so I'll know by the time all is said and done I will have that 26".

My rifle too has the super long 0.800" throat. I find by seating the bullet well into the case, it may look funky but it works.

I have finished the glassing in of my magazine well crack and will post pics of that in a few days.

I hope 500 A2 gets everything worked out well.

500 A2,
I own and shoot two 500 A2's, with slight modification of throat and shoulder, that I call the 510 JAB.

One has a 23" barrel (without brake installed) on a BRNO ZKK 602 action in a McMillan stock. I limit it to 2400 fps with 600 grainers and 2450 fps with the 570 grain XLC's or GSC FN's. This involves about 110 to 115 grains of RL-15 IN MY RIFLE. Start low and work up with a chronograph, blah, blah, blah ...

The other is a 27" barrel (without brake installed)on a Ruger No.1, with a barrel that is 1.000" at the muzzle. I like to use this with 700 to 750 grain 50 BMG target bullets at 2100 to 2200 fps. This involves 110 to 115 grains of IMR-4350. Start low and work up. That is as hot as I care to go. I might note that the 705 grain Harlow target bullet by AAA Ammo gave 2126 fps with 110 grains of IMR-4350, from the Ruger. This mild load was very accurate, placing 3 bullets into 0.170" at 100 yards. Very satisfying, and recoil was not overly abusive.

It is good to see Mitch posting again. Live long and prosper, Mitch, my 577 Tyrannosaur instructor.

Mitch,
I have long suspected your loads are bogus. After reading both your "disclaimer" post above and those posted by the originator of this thread I have come to the aforemention conclusion AGAIN!

The originator of this thread posts that he cannot get more than 130 gr of IMR4350 into a case even when using a drop tube. He also states that with TWO different case manufactures that his case capacity is around 140 grains of water (look it up above for his exact numbers). THERE IS NO WAY, NO HOW, THAT YOU CAN GET 136 gr OF IMR4350 INTO A CASE WITH A CAPACITY OF ONLY 140 gr OF WATER! The density of IMR4350 precludes this from happening! I don't care how LONG you rifle's throat is!

BTW, the 600 gr bullet loads with Rel15 are basically verbatim copies out of the A Square manual "Any Shot You Want". THESE ARE MAX LOADS TOO, I MIGHT ADD. I find it curious that Mitch has achieved almost the exact same velocities as A Square did. This is a rare occurrence indeed in hand loading!

Again I say something just does not smell right. WARNING #2: THE 500 JEFFERY LOADS ARE A BIT DEADLY TOO! DO NOT USE THESE LOADS EITHER, IF YOU VALUE YOUR LIFE AND YOUR RIFLE!

Mitch I think you should come clean on these loads you have published before someone gets hurt!
I for one will not think you less the man because your published loads were fantasy. Quite the contrary I would think far better of you for admitting it and making it RIGHT!

[ 11-17-2002, 01:48: Message edited by: 500 AHR ]

I assure you I developed the loads posted in my 500 A2. What you must also understand is that my 500 is not an A-Square rifle. My rifle has a McGowen barrel at the time my first barrel was made McGowens reamer had the wrong throat dimentions. As I stated earlier there can be a vast difference in max. loads in different barrels case in point my 577 t.rex. and Saeeds 577 t.rex. The loads Saeed can fire in his rifle would be dangerous in my t.rex. and would damage my rifle. What is safe in one rifle can be dangerous in another rifle. I can get 136.0 grs. of 4350 into a 500 A2 case. I have a neck sizing die for my 500, when you neck size only the case will hold 144 grs.of water.

[ 11-17-2002, 07:42: Message edited by: Mitch ]

Having corresponded with Mitch since the early days of this site, about 1998, by both phone and email, I can tell you that if Mitch says he has done something then he has done it.

Mike

Mitch,
500 AHR is coming across a lot like the Todd E Gang used to. Hmmm ... Todd E Gang = TEG ... Hmmm.
Deja vu?

To All,

I have met Mitch, visited three different weekends on Long Island, and he graciously allowed me to fire his T.rex at indoor and outdoor ranges. I was impressed with the quality of his reloading and his T.rex accuracy.

The loads for 500 A2 in question might be hot in some rifles without the freebore that Mitch has noted.

Neck sizing only and a long throat would account for 500 AHR's consternation, but there is no call for such an assault on the integrity of a fine gentleman like Mitch.

I am afraid the POSeur is back. What does he get out of these personal vendettas he starts up here and there?

500 AHR IS the fool formerly known as TEG, formerly known as a lot of other things including the biggest liar and most bogus poster on this website.

I just love it when he calls some other posters information "bogus." Take away Todd's reloading manuals and his Cartridges of The World book and he wouldn't be able to spell "reload."

Todd, I think we established just how much YOU know about reloading with my little duplex load gag. You have displayed your ignorance for all to see more times than anyone here. If you are in a "Stupid Contest" with someone, I declare you the winner. Now go change your name again and let the real shooters talk.

And I'll bet a case of beer 500 A2 is none other than our Mr. Bogus Todd E as well. Or is he Axel? Maybe he's got some more lathes to show us.

[ 11-17-2002, 08:11: Message edited by: Pecos45 ]

POSeur,
We are justified in attacking you when you pollute. I want to ignore you again and see where you pop up next. You suck and blow really badly, and always leave a scent that is easily trailed by us bloodhounds.

Now will the hunters of troll-hunters come out and gnash their teeth and wail some more?

DaggaRon, Thank you for your kind words of support. It was my pleasure watching you shoot my t.rex. with such great skill. The t.rex. has not been fired since the day you last fired it. I have been under the weather but I hope to resume shooting in the near futher. Perhaps I can talking you into coming down for a visit,the t.rex. is waiting for you.

Mike 375, how is it going? Thank you also for your kind words. Have you heard from Karl lately?

[ 11-17-2002, 18:36: Message edited by: Mitch ]

Whatever. Anyone who really has a 500 A Square can see through all the BS on this site immediately. I takes a case volume of 147+ gr of water to allow the 136 gr of IMR 4350 to fit into the case. With this load the powder would be piled up at the mouth NOT flat.

Further there would be no way to press the bullet in without crushing the powder to the point all air gaps were eliminated. But then again the above discussion on case volume assume that THERE IS NO AIR ANYWAY.

None of this discussion applies to the fact that Mitch's other load, using Rel 15 is a verbatim copy of the load in A Square's manual. IF that is true he has a VERY special rifle.

I also find it IMMENSELY interesting that two gentlemen that everyone knows own 500 A Squares because we have seen the guns, both say the loads on the Reloading pages are DANGEROUS and basically Fantasy Land crap!

At least I offered Mitch an opportunity to come clean. As far as, Daggaron's and Mike375's comments nothing surprising there. Neither of these "rocket scientists" are what they claim to be either.

Pecos, I am not the originator of this thread. I know better than to try and load the bogus data on the other page. You and I could have an intelligent conversation if you KNEW anyhting about big bore rifles, that is.

I'll leave again. It is disgustingly clear that I am not welcome here anymore. Ron Berry's thread on Jones underlever was a blatant attempt to draw me into a fight. A rather poor one I might add. I responded "nicely" to both Ron's and this gentlemen's threads. However, when I point out the truth about BOGUS LOADS posted by Mitch I am immediately attacked. These loads should be removed as they are dangerous and unsafe. Obviously, the posters on this forum do not care (most likely becuase they will never use these loads since they will never own a rifle thus chambered).

Have fun my cyberpunks! Perhaps someday you will have the opportunity to shoot some of these big bore rifles you continue to make believe you have and shoot.

500 AHR or what ever your name is you don't know what you are talking about, when you say in a back handed way that I don't own a 500 A2. DaggaRon has seen and fired my 500 A2, as for your other comments I will take the highroad and not go there with you. 136 grains of IMR 4350 will not overflow a neck sized only 500 A2 case if it is trickled in very slowly using a long drop tube. None of the loads in the reloading section have been pressure tested, and the starting loads should be reduced 10% for safety. There are loads printed in reloading manuals that can be dangerous if proper precautions are not taken.
Case in point for many years Hornady printed a max. load of 123.6 Grs. of IMR 4350 for the 460 WBy. I have owned two different 460s, one maxed out at 118 grs the other maxed out at 121 grs.of IMR 4350. Just goes to show proper precautions must be taken no matter the source of the loads.

[ 11-17-2002, 19:14: Message edited by: Mitch ]

Just so it is PERFECTLY clear, as to not start another round of "oh the troll, oh the troll hunters"

Member 8710 is Todd E, TEG, SRS, Axel, etc etc

quote:

---

TEG
One Of Us
Member # 8710
posted 11-01-2002 04:47

JMac,
I am sure. I only use one identity at a time! Todd G, then Todd E, then SRS, then TEG.
TEG
Posts: 157 | From: Chagrin Falls, Ohio | Registered: Jul 2002 | IP: Logged

---

Who, btw, says it owns a 50 AHR, that he posted pics of as first his 458 win, then 450 ahr, and then called out on just copying pictures from someone else's website.

Ignore all posts from 8710, as I knew when I started reading the same specious bullcrap in his arguements. Saying that "these amx loads are dangerous" is EXACTLY what all the reloading books say. This moron (toad) this that posted loads should be used differently than EVERY other loaddata supplied in EVERY book.

Okay, Toad [here's your first reloading lesson]

Start with the MINIMUM load listed, and work up from there. It's that easy.

jeffe

[ 11-17-2002, 19:06: Message edited by: jeffeosso ]

Mitch,
500 AHR is the cyberpunk. I do recall seeing and firing the 500 A2 at the outdoor range we visited on Long Island, NY. It was a Weatherby Mark V rebarreled by McGowen, IIRC. A beautifully finished piece, that was not in the least way exploded by your handloads.

However, it was an anticlimax to your 577 T.rex. I also recall that you decided against sending the 50 BMG tracer rounds down range from your 500 A2, rather were saving them for a sand dune area so as not to start any fires at the crowded Long Island range.

I will snap some pics of my 510 JAB's to add to the POSeur's lack of credibility, not that this is at all necessary.

I will certainly look you up again one day. If you are ever out my way, we should visit again.

Best Regards,
Ron Berry

The POSeur has said that some of Mitch's loads for the 500 A2 are plagiarized from the A-Square manual. This is a blithering idiot's lie. There is no duplication of numbers. Period.

Mitch,

Here are the FACTS.

Density of IMR 4350: 223.7 grains / in^3
Density of Water (@ 72 F): 252.7 grains / in^3

Density information for the IMR4350 powder was obtained from DuPont. If you do not believe me email their technical services people and ask them yourself @ www.imrpowder.com

We will even use your case volumes numbers even though they are too big!

144 grains of water for case capacity. WE shall define this as the mass of the water held within the volume of the entire case inclusive of the sized neck.

144 grains of water is the total available volume for the powder charge.

The powder is less dense than water. That means that less than 144 grains of powder will fit into the case.
The actual density differential between water and IMR 4350 is:
[223.7 (IMR4350) / 252.7 (water)]*100% = 89 %

This means that the powder charge cannot be greater than 89% the mass of the water volume of the case...PERIOD!

So to determine the maximum obtainable powder charge of IMR4350 in a 500 A Square case:

144 (case capacity) * 0.89 = 128.16 grains IMR4350

That means NO AIR is trapped in the case with the powder. THAT MEANS ONE WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO SEAT A BULLET!

I have loaded a 500 A2 before. The real case volume is around 138 - 139 grains on sized brass. The 500 A Square does not shoot to it's optimum velocity with powders in the IMR4350 and slower burn rates. IMR4064 and Rel15 are best. This is a well known fact. I would be surprised if you could get the 500 A square over 2300 fps with a full case of IMR 4350!

Fired brass NOT NECKED SIZED EVEN: is around 139 to 141 grains. This could be slightly larger if a LOOSE neck is used in the CHAMBER!

The truth is there is precise little difference between the 460 Weatherby magnum and the 500 A-Square in case capacity. So that means the maximum load in a 460 Weatherby is about all you can get into a 500 A Sqaure. That would be about 126 gr of IMR 4350 HEAVILY, I DARE SAY DANGEROUSLY, COMPRESSED! As mentioned above, IMR 4350 is TOO SLOW for the A Square anyway!

From A Square's Loading Manual: "Any Shot You Want"

Barrel length: 26 inches
Bullet: 600 gr A-Square Dead Tough
Case: A-Square
Primer: CCI 250
Powder: Rel 15 Lot 95056

113.0 gr 2316 fps 43000 psi avg pressure
118.0 gr 2467 fps 57500 psi avg pressure

Mitch published on the reloading pages:

115gr Rel 15 2416 fps (600gr Barnes SP)
116gr Rel 15 2437 fps (600gr Barnes SP)

TOO damned close for me anyway.
Mitch I advise you to stop this. I know you are full of it and you know you are full of it. I don't care if you own 50 500 A2 rifles. Your loads are fantasy land, and you know it.

I am out of here. Go back to you fantasies about 2600 fps loads with 600 grain pills in your 500 A2 with IMR 4350 powder.

[ 11-17-2002, 21:47: Message edited by: 500 AHR ]

Well, the POSeur admits he was lying about Mitch duplicating the A-Square numbers.

POSeur,
Go back to "you fantasies" and stay there. Just try to be half the man that "you dog" thinks you are.

Mitch is, perhaps, THE most credible poster on this website and has been for a long time. He is not a Forum Leader for no good reason and he is certainly not one to blow his own horn. I have met the man and have examined all the aforementioned rifles. First Class .. ALL.

Oh, I remember....

Mitch may be credible...

But Todd E/TEG/500 AHR/500A2/SRS/ etc is INcredible!

Incredible as in incredibly stupid. Incredibly obnoxious. Incredibly inexperienced. Incredibly boring. etc.

Gentlemen,

Your case is pointless. It is touching though, your loyalty to one another.

The truth is out and anyone with a functioning brain cell can see that 136 grains of IMR 4350 will not fit into a 500 A Square case.

I suggest you just drop it and let me go away. Your defending of the undefendable is too hard to resist, though so I had to post this. It is also very obvious that none of you, that have defended this arguement, have any actual loading experience with a 500 A Square utilizing IMR4350 powder (I don't know why anyone would though since this powder is way the hell too slow).

Beng a forum leader does not seem to require a great degree of credibility, Nickudu. I can recall at least one other forum leader that, how shall I say it, had multiple posting identities and abused his ability to look at IP numbers, etc, etc. HIS excuse was that his grand kids were posting as himself (if I recall correctly).

Again drop it and go on with your lives.

[ 11-18-2002, 20:02: Message edited by: 500 AHR ]

500AHR - Odd that you so well recall the saga of Mr. T, as I would have thought his departure had preceded all of your former monickers.

OK, who in the hell is preventing Mr. Dip Shit from going away???

Shut up I will leave!

Nickudu,
I have posted here since 2000. I have been here longer than you...I think.

Pecos, if you continue to post to me I can only assume you REALLY don't want me to go. Is that true?

I see recono has reincarnated BBBabbler. How special!

Nickudu, I probably know more about Mr. T than you can imagine.