Would there be any disadvantages to a .458 Lott and loading it with a good 450gn FN Mono @ 2200 fps for Buff & Elephant?

From reading old posts these would be the good points as I see them:

A well made/designed FN Mono is a good solid with good penetration.
The 45 cal. 450 grain would be a good weight since the Mono bullet would be long for it's weight, and would still have a good SD.
The Lott with a 450 gn bullet @ 2200 fps would low pressure load.
Plus a 450 gn 45 cal. bullet @ 2200 fps would have (relatively) moderate recoil.
It will fit in a M98 the same as a .375 H&H would.

The down side of a Lott is, again from reading would be:

More recoil than a lot can shoot comfortably. (The 450 gn bullet @ 2200 fps would take care of that?)
Sometimes a Lott does not feed well. (A good gunsmith would fix that?)

Allen

It would get the job done but a 500 grain would do it better. I would rather have a 500 grainer doing 2150 than a 450 grain bullet doing 2200. I don't believe you could feel much of a difference in recoil between the two loads. Frontal brain shots on ele bulls is why I would opt for this formula, if buff or ele cows are on the menu then the 450's would be plenty sufficient as would side brain shots on all ele bulls. FN monos are always not the best solids to use in a bolt rifle anyway, more than likely feeding issues or a high percentage of murphy's law occuring. If it's a coned breach like a M70 there is less a likelyhood of this happening.

Dirk

I wouldn't build a lott on a mauser action. I did do that, but there is absolutely no reason to do so when properly sized actions that don't require massive work are available, and you'll never question the strength.

Having had 2 different 458 lotts I'll agree that 500's @ 2300 fps are a signifigant amount of recoil. Many folks can't handle that recoil, and those of us that can will freely admit that while you can shoot these loads accurately and w/o injury, you can never just aim and forget about the recoil before squezzing off a round.

If you want less recoil the best solution is a 40 cal pushing 400 gr @ 2400 fps, or even 2200 fps. It's a well proven formula for the past 100 years.

If you want a thumber on an M-98, do a 404 Jeffrey.

quote:

Originally posted by dirklawyer:
It would get the job done but a 500 grain would do it better. I would rather have a 500 grainer doing 2150 than a 450 grain bullet doing 2200. I don't believe you could feel much of a difference in recoil between the two loads. Frontal brain shots on ele bulls is why I would opt for this formula, if buff or ele cows are on the menu then the 450's would be plenty sufficient as would side brain shots on all ele bulls. FN monos are always not the best solids to use in a bolt rifle anyway, more than likely feeding issues or a high percentage of murphy's law occuring. If it's a coned breach like a M70 there is less a likelyhood of this happening.

Dirk

Actually, a 450gr flat nose mono solid at 2220fps will greatly outpenetrate a 500gr round nose steel jacketed solid at 2145fps in elephant heads or on elephant or buff body shots. This I know absolutely from shooting elephants with both loads, as a killing load and also after the elephants were dead for tests. Maybe 50 of the round noses and thrity or forty of the flat noses total. The penetration difference is substantial, on the order of 30%, maybe more. All of the the flat noses exit on cow ele body shots taken anywhere near broadside and even raking, while about 50% of the round noses exit on broadside shots. All, except a few round noses that hit the opposite side zygomatic arch, exited on side brain shots. I think the flat noses might have been stopped by a similar encounter with the off side zygomatic arch as well. On frontal brain shots, all exited the skull, most of the round noses were found near the head/neck junction, this with either bulls or cows. Some of the flat noses were lost due to their great penetration, other were found after 45-60" of penetration, one or two exited cows between the shoulder blades after passing through the brain and the rest of the skull on frontal brain shots.

On buff, the flat nose 450's have too much penetration, if there is such a thing. I shot one buff with a 450 flat nose and the bullet entered about a foot or so above the root of the tail and traveled the length of the spine, out the neck, back into the skull and out the boss. The round nose 500's have about the perfect penetration for a solid on buff, enough but not too much.

I shoot the 500's at 2145fps and the 450's at 2220fps out of 458wm. Recoil difference must be there, the math says so, favoring the 450's with less recoil, but there is no perceptable difference between the two and I've shot many back to back.

450 monos and 500gr steel jacket solids are about the same length. I would recomend GS Custom now that North Fork is gone. They make a 500 grainer, but then the length is getting up there and there can be stabilization issues, especially in game, from what I have read.

Here is a photo of the buff that was holed nearly end to end and the flat nose still had enough to exit the boss. You can see the blood where the bullet entered and the hole in the boss, to the right of center as your looking at it, the dark circle. The buff was below me at the shot, traveling straight away, or nearly so; range = ~50yds:

John,
I was not debating the flat nose solids compared to round nose bullets. I was comparing GS Custom FN bullets 450's compared to the 500 grain GS FN bullets. In a 458 Win mag I would use the 450's as you do and the velocities you are getting. In a 458 Lott I would use the 500's. I know some argue the length at a certain point being an issue in penetration but with Lott velocities I don't believe that would be an issue.

Will the .458 Win get 2200 fps with 450 grain mono bullets
with out powder compaction and at moderate pressures?

Allen

In the Lott the 550 grain Woodleigh at 2,150 fps hits with noticeably more impact power than the 500 grain Woodleigh at 2,250fps. It also penetrates much much better. So it makes me wonder if the 450 grain FN solid out of the 458 Win at 2,250 fps will hit with less umph (stopping power) and penetrate less than a 500 grain FN solid at 2,150.

465H&H

When loaded to the same pressure levels in a 458WM, the speed difference between a 450gr FN and a 500gr FN is about 150fps. The momentum and energy at impact is virtually the same and will not result in any significant difference in penetration depth or wound channel volume.

The significant difference is that the 450gr FN will always have a better chance at linear penetration than the 500gr FN.

It is also possible to produce an FN solid with straight tapers that does not work at all and turns anyway. My examples above are in the context of designs that have seen a great body of field work.

With same caliber and weight bullets, many tests have shown that (a) round nose solids are most likely to turn in target, this is followed by (b) solids that have a flat meplat and a rounded ogive. Least likely to turn in target are (c) solids with flat meplats and straight tapers up to the shank (The relationship between meplat size, taper angle and nose length are important).

Less likely to turn than all of the above, are FN solids that are the same shape as (c) but shorter (lighter) and delivering the same momentum/energy levels.

As I have stated before, I have used the gsfn 500g in my 458wm on two elephants on brain shots, frontal and behind the ear, as well as body shots at ranges from 9yds to 50 yds, and have had no penetration problems.

I would remind everyone that energy levels are not a good predictor of stopping power. The 416 Rigby has the same energy level as the 470 Nitro but the 470 has much greater stopping power. Kevin Robertson author of "The Perfect Shot" and a veterinarian agrees with my preference of 550 grain bullets in the 458 Lott and the 350 grain bullets in the 375s over lighter bullets. He also sees better stopping power and penetration. You can not get a 550 grain bullet up to useful velocities in the 458 Win. so it isn't an option there.

465H&H

You are right. Energy is no predictor of stopping power. Neither are momentum or sectional density. Stopping power is the result of several attributes of the caliber and bullet in combination.

quote:

You can not get a 550 grain bullet up to useful velocities in the 458 Win

What is a useful velocity in a 458WM?

Gerard,

In my experience a 550 grain Woodleigh has about the same stopping power and penetration at 2,000 fps as a 500 grain at 2,150 fps. So their is no real advantage in the 458 Win where 1900 to 1950 would be max for the 550 grain.

465H&H

quote:

The significant difference is that the 450gr FN will always have a better chance at linear penetration than the 500gr FN.

Why's that Gerard?

It probably relates to the barrel twist not stabilizing a 500 grain mono bullet as well. If the bullet yaws in flesh it will not tend to go straight. Am I right Gerard?

In my 450 No2 I have used 480 Woodleigh Solids at 2150fps on cape buff,and with body, and brain shots on elephants with no penetration problems.

However brain shots on elephants with the 450 NF FP Solid at 2200fps have given deeper penetration.

quote:

Originally posted by dirklawyer:
John,
I was not debating the flat nose solids compared to round nose bullets. I was comparing GS Custom FN bullets 450's compared to the 500 grain GS FN bullets. In a 458 Win mag I would use the 450's as you do and the velocities you are getting. In a 458 Lott I would use the 500's. I know some argue the length at a certain point being an issue in penetration but with Lott velocities I don't believe that would be an issue.

Dirk,

I obviously misread your first post since we agree on everything you write above except maybe the length issue and there I wonder if a faster than standard twist isn't a better option.

Also, FWIW, there is no visible or discernable difference between the stopping or knock down or knock out effect of the 450gr flat nose at ~2200fps and the 500gr round noses at 2145fps, though the math favors the 500's. My 458wm is a double so I load to what shoots best and not for velocity with the 450's.

JPK