Lazzeroni has a new 470 according to the latest article of American Rifleman. Pushes a 500 grain bullet 2700 fps OUCH!

My question is why? No one could control that thing well enough to shoot it in a hunting situation.

Just my humble opinion.

Now THAT's a flinch inducer!

I think I'll just be happy with what I have and spend money on trophy fees.

So will a 470 MBOGO! What case is it built on? Hope they just didn't pirate dave's design.-Rob

[ 09-15-2003, 07:18: Message edited by: Robgunbuilder ]

I've met Lazzeroni. I'm not impressed. He seems to have read every silly idea that Roy Weatherby came up with and (can you credit it?) BELIEVED them. When I met him in Reno about 4 years ago, he hadn't been to Africa, yet. I believe that he has since then. Didn't learn much, did he?

I'll bet you could get close to 2700 fps with the right load, just with the 475-416 Riby Imp, like the guys here at AR did.
Especially if you load it like Lazzeroni does, what 67k psi?
No need to pirate the 470 Mbogo.
The Bibamufu on his regular case does 2600 fps.
I'd be surprise if he's gone to a larger case for this one round.

I'm always suprised when someone takes a rip at someone for no apparent reason but let's take a look at his "offenses".......

(1) Spent his own money and time to start a new rifle company after developing his own stable of proprietary cartridges...initally the long-case WarBird family and then the shorter-case Patriot family. I think he was well in front of where American shooters wanted to go...witness the UltraMags (if you like them or not) and the more recent release of the WSM and SAUM...all of which are knock-offs of the Lazzeroni design .

(2) He builds a quality rifle using quality components and charges $5K....so what? If you can't afford "the ride"...take public transportation. His rifles perform as advertised...they function perfectly, they deliver the performance advertised and they are accurate. They are truly a "take it anywhere" rifle that will do the job.

You don't like stainless steel, Jewel triggers or McMillan stocks....there are plenty of custom builders out there who will take your money and charge you twice as much (and more) for a reworked factory action and a hunk of fancy wood. Just walk on down the aisle and put your order in and come back in 5 years.

(3) Hadn't been to Africa! Now there's an character-flaw if I ever saw one.

(4) One thing I'll give you....John's not much of a salesman but to tell you the truth I don't think he believes he needs to be and neither do I.

DB Bill

Beeing tired of getting your darlings attacked I hope you don't sell them or trade them in for a blaser I have to agree, but Lazzeroni is a well built rifle with first class parts. I like the MCRT action that Rock McMillan makes

Only down side is that brass for the Lazzeroni calibers can be hard to find.

The 470 would be too much for me, I guess it would kick like a mule

/ JOHAN

Johan...Lazzeroni brass isn't hard to find!

John will sell you all you want and he has a pretty decent dealer discount...it is a little pricey but 100 cases will outlast the barrel if you anneal them every 5 shots.

I believe John Lazzeroni has made a good name for himself. I would never own one of his rifles unless it was given to me, but that is a matter of personal intrests on my own. I hear he makes a quality, safe rifle, out of quality parts. People buy his rifles and hunt succesfully with them. His company appears to be clean, and just one part of shootings broad spectrum of rifle makers. I can think of many other custom and factory rifle manufactures that dont meet these basics, or safty for that matter.

Does anyone know what case the 470 lazz is built on? If it is on a 404 Jeff case, then I would be interested in building one on a mauser 98 and loading it down to 2400 fps.

Some people want high velocity cartridges, and Mr. Lazzeroni serves them well; certainly he provides much more sound designs, better performance and better accuracy than Mr. Weatherby ever did.

[ 09-17-2003, 19:09: Message edited by: 500grains ]

The Lazzeroni cases are almost as big as the .416 Rigby head. Just enough different to be unique and proprietary. He basically just took the belt off a 378 Weatherby case and gave it a 30 degree shoulder across the line.

Lazzeroni: 0.580" head

.416 Rigby: 0.590" head

The former 0.545" head Lazzeroni has been discontinued, he did have three different head sizes initially, IIRC.

The full length .475/12.04 BIBAMUFU on the 0.580" head size was done at the request of Craig Boddington and one his pals who goaded Lazzeroni into making something "really big and bad," a couple of years ago, IIRC. Not new. If there is now a shorty 12.04 LIBAMUFU instead of BIBAMUFU, that would be new.

The 470 Mbogo is bigger and badder.

[ 09-17-2003, 19:33: Message edited by: DaggaRon ]

Dagga, do you know the cartridge overall length for the 470 Lazz? Just keeping my fingers crossed that it is not more than 3.650"...

Thanks.

I do believe it is standard mag length.
Why not just go with the 470 Mbogo, seated to 3.66"?

The 470 Mbogo is actually very easy to build on a std CZ550 mag . I've done two now, one on a 1917 Enfield/P-14 and the other on the CZ550. The Cz550 is much easier. It fits the std CZ magnum Mag box,but requires considerable rail and ramp work to make it feed reliably. More than I initially thought would be needed actually. The shoulder and case capacity of the 470 MBOGO are greater than the Laz and it will provide more horsepower. Damn thing really penetrates stuff unbelievably well. Recoil on a properly built gun is no worse than that from a hot 458 win on a Ruger #1 IMHO.-Rob

500grains,
All the long-magnum Lazzeroni cartridges have a max brass length of 2.810" trim to 2.790".

They are pretty compact in length, shorter than the .375 H&H case (2.850" max). Certainly can work in H&H lengtn actions, eh?

Yep,
The 470 Mbogo will easily do 2685 fps with a 500 grain Barnes Original RNSP bullet in my rifle with a 25" Pac-Nor barrel, RL-15.

I'll bet the Barnes XLC 500 grainer would go over 2700 fps easily, but why?

I really doubt that the 12.04 BIBAMUFU can hold a candle to the 470 Mbogo.

As for 500grains muck raking trolling posts: Tsk, tsk, tsk. You've been a bad boy Dan. Get down and give me fifty!

Dagga, we shouldn't re-start the debate here, but a man of flag rank has to set an example. If he disregards the regulations, what does that tell the enlisted men? We expected them to comply with the regs. even when it means they will be injured, crippled, captured or killed. The leadership should hold themselves to a higher not a lower standard than the grunts on the ground. IMHO.

Hi Gents,
Thanks for all the kind words about the 470 Mbogo they are much appreciated. I personally think the best of both worlds is the 500 grain bullet at 2500 fps with moderate pressures. Reliability is very key.
Take good care,
Dave

Hey 470Mbogo, have you experimented with loads at 3.6" overall?
Seems you could have great performance without the mods necessary for a long mag.

Gentlemen,

Isn't this the sort of energy Weatherby used to claim for their 460 Magnum a few years back?

On the subject of Lazzeroni rifles, I've used severel of john's rifles, and all of them met or exceeded what he said they will do. In addition, he was kind enough to neck down his 10.57 Meteor down to .375 for me when I asked him to.

He said he did not have any brass for this one, and offered to send me 10.57 Meteor brass so I can neck down myself.

We managed to get 3140 fps from this one with a 300 grain Barnes X bullet.

Yep,
The 470 Mbogo is capable of that 8000 foot pounds that the .460 Weatherby used to claim. But as Dave said, not necessary.

I will have to trot a picture of my 470 Mbogo out here, if I ever make one and get the wife or kid to upload it for me! Still in the cheap laminated stock, but it will do for now, so don't laugh too hard, y'all.

You can get 8000 ft lbs out of a 460 wby if you don't mind serious overpressure signs and a brass life of 1-2 shots before the primers fall out of their pockets. The increased frontal area of the 470 MBOGO at the same bullet weight and velocities as the 460 wby are quite an advantage. Of course a 500 A2 will perform even better.-Rob

My 470 Mbogo.
BBK-02
Pac-Nor 25" stainless
Weight: 10.75 pounds empty/bare.

Laminate stock with 4 crossbolts (one hidden, three with rosewood inlay), 2 pillars, and 1 axial grip bolt (1/2" thick).

"Textured" epoxy grip.

Lightning bolt checkering on the forearm (both sides).

Epoxy inlay of Mbogo skull and horns and Hammer of Thor (one side).

Metal work by Rusty McGee, professional.

Stock work by yours truly, amateur.
Someday I gotta get a McMillan stock for this thing!

[ 09-19-2003, 10:27: Message edited by: DaggaRon ]

Hi Ron,
What's with all the bad talk your gun looks great. That's a working rifle that needs a trip for Buffalo. I'll have to get a McNillan stock for mine before I get a chance to go to Africa. It seems the wood stock doesn't climatize as well as I do.
Take care
Dave

Hey Dave,
Yep, thar she be. Glad you got to see another working rifle chambered in your cartridge creation.

Stout and fits me. Feeds and functions well, is accurate and speedy. If any 470 will get 2700 fps with a 500 grain bullet, this one will, but why for?

I have so much steel and epoxy in and on that stock, that a McMillan will get her under 10 lbs. That might call for lead or mercury to be added to the McMillan, or maybe a 2.5X Leupold to get the weight back up to about 10.5 lbs.

Or I just shoot it with iron sights as it is.

Dakota single leaf express rear, NECG banded front sight. Talley barrel band.

Cheers!

[ 09-22-2003, 06:45: Message edited by: DaggaRon ]

I am not degrading either Lazzeroni's business ethics, quality of his product, attractiveness of his wife, virtue of his daughters or anything except his (IMO really silly) idea that more is better on the subject of velocity. It has not been established that "energy" is the be-all and end-all of good, humane game-killing. As a technical experiment, his .470 will likely be a success. The Mbogo is even more successful. Still, I ask, how dead do we insist that the animal be?

Sarge....with respect to his original cartridges like the Warbird etc I agree 100%...if I'm going to carry that much rifle with all the recoil I want a bigger bore...but...his line of short cartidges based on the Patriot case are the real-deal.....maybe not for everyone, especially since the WSM and SAUM are here, but a first-class piece of design.

sarge, there are guys who want a couple of hundred extra fps, and Mr. Lazzeroni can give it to them. It's the free market system, and I will not stand in the way. Roy W. became quite wealthy from the same market forces. You or I might not feel that it is the best route from a technical standpoint, but one man's trash is another man's treasure.

Which is, basically, the same argument we have been thrashing all over on the .400 H&H post. So I guess the velocity fans can get what they want and I can grumble about it if I want. So there! And humpf!

So, what's a 470 anything going to do in the field that a 416 Rem won't do? Nothing, absolutely nothing. Staring down a buff at 20 paces, I'd still take the 416 and be over-gunned.

Like big cases?...then use the 416 Rigby.

Sabot,
I'd like to believe that, but ...

Why not just make it a .375? Why do you think the .416 is IT?

Couldn't one do just as well with a .375?

Daga -

No professional hunter or guide is going to pick a 375 H&H over a 416 Rem in a dangerous situation...the parent case is the same but these two rounds are in different classes, period.The slippery slope arguement actually slants DOWN in the direction of more power after the 416 Rem.

Shot placement and bullet performance are the keys here, especially after you have enough power...and the 416 Rem is enough. In a dicey situation, the guide or hunter is shooting off hand at a moving target or making certain that an anchoring shot stays that way. If the shots are not well placed, there is going to be trouble even with a 470 Loudenboomer.

Does anyone really think that a Cape Buff gut shot with a 470 is LESS dangerous than one gut shot with a 416? If you screw the pooch, you pay the price, period.

Now, with that said I don't think there is anything wrong with other, more powerful big bores. They put up great paper numbers AND work in the field. I just think every ethical hunter needs to recognize that there is no majic in the numbers after some point, and that the key is still avoiding risky shots and good shot placement.

If you do this with a 416 Rem you will do as well as anyone else.

Gentlemen,

I suppose we will never get over the argument that "bigger is better" which is rather sad, as I have personally met so many people with this sort of mentality.

I have managed to convert a few, but some die hard ones are totally unconvinced - even though none of them have ever shot a cape buffalo.

The most important thing to remember is bullet construction and bullet placement.

A well constructed, well placed bullet, from a 375 caliber rifle is a lot more effective than a badly or marginally placed bullet from a 470 Lazzeroni.

It really is as simple as that.

And a well-placed, well-constructed bullet from something bigger is even better! Just don't go big if you can't shoot it.

So, does anyone know yet what the case is for the Lazzeroni?
Is it just the Bibamufu or whatever loaded higher than previously published, or a different case?

Surely it is the 12.04 Bibamufu. I think it came out in 1999. Just now getting into the NRA reporting. The name of the cartidge doesn't help:

12.04 BIg-BAd-MUtha-FU****

The 470 Mbogo is bigger and better, and has a lot nicer ring to the cartridge name.

I'm sure you're right.
Especially on the last point!
Maybe the velocities in COtW are at "sane" pressures, and the 2700 fps is at the Lazzeroni standard, 67k psi or something like that?
I'd say the Mbogo is destined to become the final say in all-around, general purpose, do-all rifle for blowing really big and deep holes through very big and scary animals at under 50 yds.
Now, think we can talk Northfork into a 550 grainer?