This entire discussion really interests me. I have seen animals fall from the shot and I have seen animals walk away as if nothing has happened. Now we have all these science types here posting scientific evidence that says that animals cannot be knocked off of their feet.

I propose that we conduct a little test. The next time I slaughter a steer I will keep the hide and guts. I will then use a plastic barrel supported by two saw horses. I will fill the barrel with the guts and blood from the steer and wrap the barrel with the steers rawhide. I will then shoot it with my 500 Jeffery to see if it is knocked over or not.

What do yo guys think? I wonder if the plastic barrel is too unscientific. I mean is the plastic going to be tougher than the animals muscle? I think I will be slaughtering a steer sooner rather than later too since I only got one deer this year and the freezer is getting low.

Kent

It doesn't matter how tough any of it is. You just need to assure that the bullet remains inside the target. It'll be easier to tell how much the center of mass moved if liquid doesn't blow all over the place though, so you might want to reconsider your test medium.

I suggest a log. Easy to weigh. Easy for it to contain a bullet. Doesn't attract flies.

You could also just shoot a metal plate. If the bullet disintegrates on impact, all the momentum is transferred to the target. See how far it swings, do a little math, and Voila!-- you can determine the impact velocity of the bullet. That's how bullet velocity was originally measured (see you Lyman reloading handbook if you doubt me). The first experimenters were astounded when they found how quickly the bullets were slowing down due to air resistance. 70 g's, but they were blunt bullets.

But I digress... All you need is a one thousand pound object that will stop a DGR bullet, and mounted on four legs. You shouldn't be able to knock it over by pushing on it, just as you couldn't knock over a buff. Shoot it; it won't move.

Pertinax
(who does NOT do ballistic testing using offal...)

Do that test and then tell us.

i am very interested off knocking down power.

When are you going to do the test....?

Pertinax the reason I was going to use the steers entrails and hide is that I want to try and duplicate the animal as closely as possible. I could shoot the real animal and I will but I want to know if the bullet itself can knock over the mass. I do not want anyone to say that the target fell because of the nervous system. The other reason that I want to use a liquid fill is that Harald and I have been discussing the pressure created by the passing of the bullet. I am thinking that this may actually have somekind of effect on knock down.

Kent

Kent,
Many years ago I wanted a riot shotgun. So I bought one. I took it to a lonely place to do some shooting and found a few pieces of spruce firewood. A log maybe 12 inches across and 18-20 inches high or so became my victim. I shot it using 3 inch 12 guage slugs. I think it hurt me more than it did that log. It rocked back, almost tipped over then righted itself. I shot it again. Same thing. The slugs drove almost all the way to the other side of that log. I was satisfied.
If I had shot a smaller diameter log it would have fallen over. If I shoot a little dog with a 12 gauge it will fall in the direction of the shot. If I shot a very large dog it might fall straight down. Depends on how much intertia the bullet has to overcome.
I will predict what will happen when you shoot your plastic barrel of gut and steerhide, remember to mark the position of the base of the barrel with a Magic Marker on the wood it sits on. I predict it will move in the direction of the shot a tiny bit and it will make a real big stinky mess. If you fill the barrel it will BLAP and you'll have steer guts all over. It should be a good test.
Find an old 55 gallon drum and fill it smack to the stop with water and shoot that.

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Overkill,

I will probably slaughter within the next couple of weeks. It shouldn't take too long to setup the test. I have a friend that will be coming over here to help. I think he is planning on helping only not cleaning up.

I would like to get it done during the winter months to keep the flies down. I live on a pig farm so I am accustom to flies and they live in my house year round. In reality the hogs will eat the guts if I let them. I usually burn them though.

Kent

I can tell you what I have already noted. I mention it somewhere in my website. In all my wetpack tests, ranging up to the .458 Win Mag with 500 grain bullets, I have never seen the 80 to 100 lb plastic tub of phonebooks move. Now it probably does move - a little bit, but even after four or five shots it doesn't inch off the table. In fact I can't tell that it has moved at all. It doesn't torque to one side if the bullet impacts off the centerline. Basically, nothing happens. Granted, there is some small amount of friction between the smooth plastic tub and the smooth pine table top. But not much. Not enough to resist 4440 ft-lbs / 1.67 ft = 2660 lbs of force, if it were truly being exerted as the simplistic analysis would suggest. I can shove the tub off the table using probably 50 lbs of force or a good hard strike. But the big .458 stopper hasn't got a prayer of doing it. Just so you know, I can't bench press 2600 lbs one-handed.

Harald,

Phonebooks and a living moose are 2 different things.

If you shoot the moose in the shoulder when the moose are standing, whit a 585 nyati and the 750 grains bullet stop up very fast in the moose when it hit bones. Then the moose are going to fall over because of the pressure.

But if you are shooting phonebooks they are dont goig to move because they dont have any balance to lose.

I hope you understand that....

But if kent put up that thing he do and then we see what happends.

Then we can discuss about that....

Kent,

Here is an example of how all this hoopla about knockdown is totally irrelevant when it comes to live animals.

Last year I shot an impala, which probably cannot be more than 150 pounds.

He was feeding about 80 yards away, facing us. The bullet hit him at the junction of his left shoulder and neck, penetrated the whole length of his body, and stopped under the skin of his right hand leg.

At the shot, he jumped slightly, and ran in a semi circle for about 15 yards, lay down and died.

He was shot with a Barnes X 300 grain bullet out of a 375/404, which started off at around 2660 fps.

I am not sure how much energy that bullet would have lost in that short distance, but it started off with over 4,700 foot pounds of energy!

Any expalantions from my friends here would be much appreciated.

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

Now you've done it, Saeed.

You've introduced reality into a fine argument.

Thank you.

And you could follow up with an example of shooting a buff and watching it instantly collapse.

I haven't seen your video yet, but I'm guessing that this has happened. There's no way to predict without error how a given animal is going to respond to a given shot.

With your experience, you could probably even recount an incident where you shot a buff which simply began to run, and then shot the same animal with the same rifle and the same ammo, but on the 2nd shot it dropped like it was hit with a train.

If all kills could be predicted with a formula, there would be no difference in results.

Rick.

Somehow-or-another I think some folks are getting bullets confused with sledgehammers and wrecking-balls. While the foot pounds of energy calculations for a 500 gr bullet traveling at 2450fps top 5900FT/LBS of energy at the muzzle, this does not translate to moving a 5900LB animal one foot! You will not knock an animal off it�s feet with a bullet - this is real life stuff, not Hollywood special effects. You are not going to shoot an Impala with a .38spl and knock it 10 yards back like you see Arnold doing on the big screen.

I'll add some reality to Saeed's. In May I shot a springbok with a .340 Wby and instantly flattened it. It went down so fast I lost sight of it in the moment the gun recoiled. After a long while it staggered up onto wobbly legs and I saw that although blood was gushing from the exit wound it started to eat grass again, apparently unaware that it was mortally wounded. It was almost facing me now and I aimed for the near shoulder. This time when I fired nothing happened. I thought that I missed. A few seconds later it simply teetered over sideways, stiff as a board. The bullet penetrated its body stem to stern and lodged in the ham. This animal weighed maybe 70 lbs.

Now, did my mighty .340 Wby knock it off its feet? Or did my puny .340 Wby fail to elicit even a twitch in reaction to the shot?

If you shoot a moose in the shoulder with a .577 Nyati or a .900 Jurassic Park III it isn't going to fall over on account of the pressure wave from the impact. It falls over because a shoulder hit is a) highly traumatic and b) proximal to the upper spine. It shorts out his circuits and he falls down. If there isn't enough force to move against 50 lbs of inertia then it ain't gonna knock down a moose. A ground squirrel, yeah I'll buy that.

[This message has been edited by Harald (edited 02-04-2002).]

Harald,

My friend is an old moose hunter and he have shoot about 150 mooses in his life, and i say to him that a bullet can knock down a moose of the bullet pressure when you hit him in the shoulder.

Then he said this "If i hit you in your shoulder you are going to be smack down at once, and i have much less power than a 585 nyati bullet"

Then i said to him that the expert says that is impossible for the bullet to knock over a moose.

Then he said " say to your experts that they have a trauma in the ass"

What folks fail to grasp is there is a big difference between the physiological response of an animal being shot, to the physical reaction.

If the animal keels over at the shot, it is because that is what the animals brain is telling it's muscles to do, not that the bullet is knocking the animal off of its feet.

One may beg to differ, but that's the fact Jack!

Overkill, doubtless your friend is an undiscovered genius. How is it that your friend can still stand after he shoots all these knocked over moose? Or is he sitting on his butt in the snow every time he fires? The shooter experiences more recoil force than the moose experiences impact force. I already pointed out that I can punch a LOT harder than a .458 Win Mag.

Apparently too, the alq in Sweden are real "pushovers" compared with 30 kg Namibian springboks.

This is becoming tiresome. I think we need some video. Maybe that will be accepted. Kent, please record your test and make it a good one!

[This message has been edited by Harald (edited 02-05-2002).]

I agree-- it is becoming tiresome. I might write up a basic conservation of momentum lesson; then again I may not. I've got reloading to do...

Pertinax

Overkill- I guarantee you there isn't a caliber in a shoulder fired gun around that will knock a moose off it's feet by energy alone. Here's what I've witnessed in the last few weeks:
3 Bison bulls shot with 375 Weatherby, 375 H&H and 416 Weatherby. None collapsed, all showed very little reaction of being hit, no flinching or buckling. All three were hit well.
Fallow deer(180lbs.) shot with 375 Weatherby. Stumbled and ran for about 10 yards.
Sika deer(140 lbs.) ,shot with 375 H&H through front shoulder, ran about 30 yards and fell over. All were lung shots.

On a broadside lung or heart shot where no leg/shoulder is broken, I have yet to see ANY animal drop in its tracks, regardless of caliber. My experiences, like 'em or not.

I can't tell you how delighted I am in two things: First, that Kent is going to do an experiment that I thought only a Texas Aggie could conceive of, and second, that he's not my neighbor.

Kent, just be sure to run a water hose into that drum to take up all the space that the steer guts don't and get it good and full (after all, one of them mooses ain't got no empty space inside him). Then be sure and use a drum that you can seal with a water tight lid real good (and get it on good and tight, too). Then set it on some real nice light beige carpet, maybe about 12 feet square, so you can see exactly where the "steer's" innards land. Look forward to hearin' from ya!

HO HO HO GEEZIS HO HO HO.

Tiresome at first but getting funnier all the time!

I have avoided getting involved since others have taken care of the right answer: the only reason an animal drops at the shot is if the central nervous system is catastrophically disrupted, or if it is literally blown to smithereens like that ground squirrel taken with a 460 Weatherby.

Well, I have knocked a moose flat with a 458 Winchester Magnum, but it was because the 500 grain Hornady RNSP went to pieces on passing through the shoulder. Bone fragments and bullet fragments scattered across the thorax and shocked the spine into collapse. Looked as if the hammer of Thor had smacked that moose on the noggin.

I also put a hoary marmot down right now with the same load. That little critter was pretty well shredded by the impact. Yeah, he looked like he had been sledge hammered too.

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Happiness is a warm double and a bloody spear, but a 375 or a 416 will do just fine!
RAB

Well I got the rig put together last night with some help from a demented friend of mine. As it turns out we will be slaughtering 1 steer and 2 hogs this week end. Best that we can figure we will have around 500 pounds of guts and that will pretty much fill the barrel. We have the barrel set up on a 2X4 frame work with legs spaced about the same width as a steer. The overall length is a little short though as the barrel isn't as long as we would like.

If all goes well and the weather is good we should do the test on Sunday or Monday. I going to use by 500 Jeffery with 440 grain soft point bullets. My friend will bring over his camcorder to video the even.

Kent

A drum roll please! : Pun intended.

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Happiness is a warm double and a bloody spear, but a 375 or a 416 will do just fine!
RAB

Certain veiwpoint(s) on this topic remind me of jury decisions. You can have 10 Nobel laureates testify that the allegded action violates all know laws of physics, and yet, one farmer gets up and says " I don't know nothing about no physics, all I know is what I saw" and the jury will agree with him. While I can follow the math and physics, I had the principle well illustrated to me when I took up shooting bowling pins with pistols.
Until you see what little effect (relatively) that shooting a bowling pin with a .44 mag. pistol ( 800 ft lbs of energy,about 100 to 1 difference between energy and weight)has you don't appreciate the principle.
Kent, I will look forward to seeing the video. My quick calculations indicate that there is little risk of flying debris in central TX.

Oh I think that debris will fly! I get spattered with soggy paper "guts" on occasion. But the drum probably won't tip over. I tried to knock over an empty drum with a shotgun loaded with buckshot one time. It was very disappointing. The lead shot didn't penetrate at longer range so it shook it slightly, but that was all.

Kent

It is fun to see what happends..

Harald,
I think you first post was corrct. I have a penetration box out behind my shop where I test bullets. This box is four feet long and contains 12"x12" plywood 3/4" thick it may weigh about 70 pounds. This sets atop a 55 gal. drum.I have used solids and softs up to the 500 3" The .416' 458 and 460 wbys all have the same effect. NONE!!!
I have seen small antelope deer etc collaspe with lung shots but do not recall any of the larger animals such as the african large antelope or dangerous game going down with a lung shot. The shoulder shot is a different story. It may, or may not go down. I have witnessed two buffalo being shot in the shoulder area with a .577 that ran off one was still standing when we cought up. The same goes for any shoulder fired rifle that I know of. Major structual damage has to happen for any large animal to collaspe on the spot this encludes the brain of course.
This is one reason I have settled on the 40 calibere for a DGR rifle. A 50 caliber may exibit a bit more push but not enough for me to put up with the recoil. Usually a larger caliber will be somewhat heavier therefore slower in use. In other words you still have to hit a large animal correctly with what ever you use.
George

I shot a buffalo broadside at 30 yards with a 585 nyati (750 grains at 2250 fps). The buffalo hunched like someone had kicked him in the guts and ran off. We found him 40 yards later or so doing his bellow thing. THe bullet had broken his shoulder as it went in and then passed through the lungs. He was not knocked down at all.

Kent, why don't you just shoot the steer broadside with those 440 softs? That will be the most realistic test possible without getting on an airplane, and a broadside shot will not hurt the meat.

I predict a big mess

I am new here....

Kent, it�s fun to hear about your test

Kent: I think 500 grains has a hell of an idea there. Instead of hitting the steer between the eyes with a sledge hammer, just give him one behind the shoulder. But still -- be sure to stand him on that square of light beige carpet so you can properly post-mortem the bullet action.

If the steer doesn't move enough to satisfy you, you've always got the pigs you try the same thing with!

We're all holding our collective breath to hear the outcome of your intrepid demonstration.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot! Be sure to tie the steer to something stationary, like a snubbing post. Otherwise, when you shoot him behind the ribs with that .500 Jeffrey, he's going to let out one hell of a bellow and take off running for the far side of the farm, where he'll die in some inconvenient place (at least inconvenient for butchering). Then you'll have to go get a tractor and log chain and drag the sumbitch back to the butcher shed, by which time you will have forgotten all about precisely measuring the anatomical deflection from transfer of bullet momentum, and will probably also be too pissed-off to mess with the damn hogs.

Hurry up with the pictures.. If the plastic barrel is not too " elastic", the top is tightly fastened, and the barrel is full, guts and stuff are going everywhere. Either the top will blow off or the barrel will split. The contents , being largely water, are non compressible and the pressure wave must go somewhere, out or up. Not likely to blow out the bottom, but it is possible.
Why do animals not explode when they are shot. 1)the animals "barrel" ( hide and muscle) are very elastic and will stretch to accomodate the pressure wave; 2) the animal has some hollow organs ( lungs, stomach, gut, etc. which are compressible and help absorb the pressure wave. If the barrel moves at all, it will be due to the reaction to jetting out of contents, which does not occur in animals.

Redbird,

Contents jetting out won't move the barrel either. Conservation of momentum again.

It won't move. It may rip open, but the center of mass will not move appreciably.

Pertinax

I have been thinking about shooting the steer and then butchering to. I am not going to shoot the hogs though. For one thing they aren't mine. The barrel will be laying on its side and the top is held on with a steel hoop clamp. I do not think that the top will blow off but we will find out. I have got the spot set up and I think I will just burn the mess up when I am done.

This is turning into a rather interesting undertaking here. I have several friends that are wagering on whether the barrel will tip over or not.

I am hoping to get this done Sunday afternoon. I will post the results as soon as I am able. Hopefully this will end this debate once and for all.

Kent

Kent,

Why not shoot the steer, fill the barrel with guts, and shoot the barrel?

Comparing how the barrel reacts to how the steer reacts will tell us whether a gut-filled barrel is an accurate simulation of shooting a steer.

....except the barrel won't bellow or run off.

That is the idea I was trying to explain in my last post 500grains. As far as the steer bellowing and running around I seriously doubt that. A friends cousin has shot several of my steers over the years with a 12 gauge slug and they have never done much more than fall over. This guy by the way is a prick but he pays better than market value so I don't really care.

Kent

Overkill-
Take a 45 auto and several clips down to your neighborhood bank. Ask to borrow their vault. Open the vault door and then push it closed. See how easy it is to close that massive vault door just by pushing on it? Now open the vault door, stand a few feet away and start emptying your 45 clips into the door and see how many clips it takes to close the door. I'll bet the cops show up long before the door is closed. It's that "momentum" thing.

[This message has been edited by ForrestB (edited 02-08-2002).]

One of the quickest knockdowns I have ever seen was a 308 on a mule deer. My friends wife shot this buck at about 300 yards...it went down instantly.

Blood was everywhere...on the ground and all over the deer. We could not find a wound until we started to skin it out...she had shot the bucks manly parts to kingdom come.

The shock must have knocked the deer down...and he bled to death from that highly vascularized area.

knockdown power and handgun rounds has been done to death in different forums...w/o hitting spine/brain/breaking bones you do not knock someone over.(maybe we can add another area that when shot leads to insant knockdowns!)
Perrydog

Of course, all things being equal, larger, faster bullets will do more tissue damage than smaller, slower ones. This "knockdown" effect shouldn't be confused with, say, getting punched by Mike Tyson. One should remember that the energy of recoil is always GREATER than that of that which the animal receives. The mass of the bullet and gasses times their respective velocity squared will equal the mass of the rifle times its recoil velocity squared. That we are not instantly killed by the recoiling rifle is because this energy is effectively dissipated over area and time, averting tissue damage (except for the Weatherby eye which I have!)

After all this mumbo jumbo, I would still rather have a 460 Wby to stop a charging buff than a 30-06 anyday!

Kent! You've been holding out on us! Why didn't you tell us that you've been letting a prick shoot your cattle with 12 gauge slugs?

Well? What happened? Did the steers get pushed over, or what? Did they bellow? And where did the prick shoot the steers (where on the steer, that is)?

How much above the going rate do you charge that prick to shoot your cattle? How much would you charge any of the pricks on this forum if they wanted to shoot your steers? People are paying a lot these days for just about the same thing with captive elk and "russian" boars, so maybe you could finance your ballistics research with shooting fees, and get the research done at the same time!

Can't wait until Sunday.