Guys, being a newbie to the over 40's, I don't have a lot of info at my disposal. It seems to me that many feel the 416 Rigby is king, while others rave about the attributes the 416 Taylor possess (shorter action, lighter rifle, less recoil, similar velocity), and now H&H has come out with the 400 (411 dia?) that is roughly the same as the other two mentioned. That is the surface view, what is under the surface that makes one better than the others and why? This isn't meant to get anyone's dander up, they all seem pretty similar at face value, what am I missing?

Yukon,

This is about I would see them:

416 Rigby Wins the nostalgia and desirability race. Also, with chambering in the CZ 550, wins the big bang and big cartridge for the money race. Loaded to full pressure loading and with no muzzle brake, recoil will stop you before you overload.

416 Taylor The most practical for converting rifles like Ruger 77s or Model 70s in 7mm Rem, 338 Win to a 416. Much better for this than the 416 Remington because the 416 Taylor is the same lenght as the 7mm, 300 and 338 magnums.

416 Remington This is the one if you want a factory rifle and factory chambering in Model 70

416 Weatherby for those who like Wby rifles and who might wish to have a 30/378 or 338/378 as a smaller bore companion.

Basically, if the rifle is of normal weight and without a muzzle brake, exceeding 2400 f/s with 400 grain bullet will produce sufficient recoil to limit the usefullness of the caliber.

416 Taylor with most loads will probably be in the 2300 plus area. The 416 Rem will do the 2400 plus quite nicely. For the 416 Rigby the 2400 is just cruise mode and and it is even easier for the slightly bigger 416 Wby case.

404 Jeffrey Hs the tradition of the 416 Rigby but less pizzz. However it can be done on a Model 70 or Mauser 98, which for many would be seener as higher class way to go than the CZ 550, which is the only lower price option for the 416 Rigby. Case capacity is similar to 416 Remington but with .423 bullets instead of .416 bullets. Thus there are no Hornady, Speer or Nosler bullets available.

Mike

Mike,
Thanks for the reply. I'm kinda confused about the 40 vs. 416 debate. Seems the only real difference is case capacity and design. The 40 is actually a .411" dia bullet and the 416 is a 416 right? If bullets of similar construction and sectional densities are used, seems there are cases out there that allow for similar velocities with likewise similar pressures. I'm guessing and hoping someone will confirm or set me straight. I know Swift offers the A-Frame in the 40 and Barnes goes up to 400. I'm assuming Woodleigh makes a 40, but don't know that for sure. Hornady is making 40, for low velocity "practice" loads.

The reason I ask all of this is because, the Rigby cases are somewhat harder to find (in my area) than 375 H&H cases, and if the 400 H&H can be made on the 375 cases and loaded with quality bullets at required velocity under reasonable pressures, it seems like a pretty interesting round.

Yukon

I guess the only reason to have a 400 H&H over a 416 Remington is because you would prefer one

As to 416 Rigby Vs 400 H&H and easy to get 375 cases, one thing to remember is that you only have to get a few 416 Rigby cases because if you load to 2400 f/s with 400 grains or equivalent energy with lighter bullets pressure is way down and case life is way up. Barrel availability in 408 or 411 might be another issue as would a reamer and dies for 400 H&H. However if you had the barrel, reamer and dies sorted out, then a Model 70 in 375 H&H would be an easy rebarrel to 400 H&H.

Personally, I would see the 400 H&H as being similar to the 318 Westley Richards, which is basically the 30/06 case necked up for .330 bullets. Similar to the 318 in the sense that unless it is the right rifle then it loses a lot. In other words the 318 Westley Richards compared to the 338/06 is about like the 400 H&H compared to the 416 Remington.

400 H&H might be nice if you also had a 375 H&H.

Mike

[ 10-28-2002, 23:38: Message edited by: Mike375 ]

Yukon,

Don Heath has been reporting pressure problems with .416 Remingtons at the Zim Rifa PH course and at the Proficiency Exam. Of course doing the exam in November in the Zambezi Valley gets really high temperatures. Don also says the AFrican ammo companies say they have trouble developing a .416 Rem load (don't know what powders they are using).

I am assembling parts to build a .400 H&H. The Holland folks tell me they will release it to the trade. So look for a .411/400 grain bullet at 2,350 fps (factory spec). I had an email from them this morning, and things are coming along on the .400 H&H. The .465 H&H is behind the .400 in development.

I think the .416 Rigby cartridge and rifles are larger than necessary, but that is personal preference...jim dodd

Thanks for the info guys. I'm not trying to make a case for the 400, I honestly don't have that much experience with the over 40 class stuff. I had one 416 Rigby a couple of years ago that someone else decided they couldn't live without and I let it go because I had no immediate need for one. Now, you guys have got me thinking of it again. Just curious about the cartridges out there and it's hard to get around everyone's passionate pleas about their favorite. The Rigby does seem a bit much as I don't ever expect to hunt an elephant, but Cape Buffalo would be nice. Just wondering what the real or "practical" difference is between the ones we've seen so much discussion about here. The info on the pressures in the Remington and I'm assuming would echo for the Weatherby flavor are well taken.

Mike,
Pretty much right on, but Actually the case capacity of the 404 is almost equal to the 416 Rigby, not the 416 Rem....The 404 can come within 100 FPS of the Rigbys best safe load...or you can improve the case and surpass the Rigby, but neither are necessary as 2400 FPS for them both is about ideal.

I would go with the 416 Rem as the most practical of the bunch, from a factory loading standpoint and from a component standpoint...

There isn't a lot of difference in any of them in the field of DG shooting.

My only complaint against the Rigby is that big old action should be used for a 505....I like the smaller compactness of the 404 or 416 Rem. on a std. 06 lenth action..but the Rigby carries a big following from the nostalgic crew of which I am one...Howsomever, the 404 has much more nostalgia, it was the true African choice of rifles, the Rigby was made famous by a couple of drunk authors, Hemmingway and Ruark..the 404 was the honey of the game depts and locals who could only afford the 404..so there ya go!

Yukon Jack,

You don't want to waste your time on those peculiar .411" and .423" diameter bullets. The .416 (whether Taylor, Remington, Dakota, or Rigby) is the way to go. The .416 Weatherby may be too much of a good thing, about like a hot loaded 404 in Ray's longtom.

Of course the majority of folks in the know will chose the 416 Rigby as the perfect magazine cartridge. The best of all time. King of the Hill. They do not have to be bulky and unmanageable, even for someone with shriveled and arthritic hands like some old duffers around here who just can't get a grip anymore. Less than 9 pounds in a CZ 550, 9.5 pounds in a Ruger 77 or Numero Uno, or you name it in a commodity chic semi-custom or custom rifle.

I'll bet most of the 404 relics still not rusted out yet will weigh over 9 pounds. Eh, Ray?

BTW, it seems that even Ross Seyfried is not above crass commercialism in kissing up to the industry of gun and ammo makers. That is the way of the world. He is extolling the praises of the .400 and .465 H&H so that he is sure to have dibbs on product evaluation for these new oddballs for publication in the gun rag.

Shameful.

And still no explanation from that wussy on his "plastic worm" comment about foam filler wrecking double rifles.

Shameful.
***
RAB

Another 40 caliber that gets overlooked but should theoretically be a great round is the 416 Howell. It's a 404 Jeff, shortened, shoulder blown out, 416 bullet. More case capacity than the 416 Taylor, fits standard length actions.