I checked with a fabric store and they said they did have dacron in some bags for use when stuffing things. How easy is it to measure down to the 4-5 grains you mentioned? And do you just put it into your casing on top of the RL-15?

I've seen several loads posted online for a .470 that use RL-15 powder. Thinking I would likely use the same, I looked in my copy of "Any Shot You Want" and saw each load they listed (one used 89 gr and the other 90) that used that propellant as exceeding the "allowable maximum average pressure." Is RL-15 too hot for a .470?

RL-15 with a filler of 4 or 5 grs. of dacron is a great powder in the .470...

My load is 85 grs. with 4 grs. of Dacron for 2020 FPS..this regulates with my power load of 108 grs. or IMR-4831 for 2245 FPS, all with 500 gr. bullets of any make...

Federal has settled on 89 grs. of RL-15 and a foam ear plug filler, at least that was what was in the last one I pulled..It got a bit over 2100 FPS...

90 grs. of RL-15 seems a little on the warm side to me but in a good new manufactured rifle it should be OK...Your getting there for sure. pushing the string and that's Ok with a bolt gun but maybe not with a double...

In an English gun I would be concerned that it might, in time, shoot them off the face and a couple of grs less could prevent that, and the killing potential is still there, they are too costly and too beatiful to pound apart with a too warm load IMO...

The Bell brass is heavier than the Norma and Federal brass. The Bell brass in 470 NE has less capacity, and will take a few grains less powder to get the desired pressure and velocity. Dacron fiber wad versus a very low density packing foam wad can also affect the final charge to give crossing velocity.

Assuming the generic Woodleigh RNSP is used, the load for the woodleigh solid is usually one grain less RL-15 for the solid.

RL-15 is great, you just have to start at about 85 grains and work up carefully, chronographing or watching for the crossing point.

I didn't know Federal was using a filler. I thought their secret was the hotter F216 primer and something like 87 to 89 grains of what looks like RL-15.

Rip I agree. I pulled some Federal loads two years ago and there were 87 grs. of a powder indestinguishable from RL 15 and no filler. I questioned both Craig Boddington and the Federal rep (forgot his name) about this, at the 2002 SCI convention. Both said Federal was using RL 15, 87 grs., and this proprietary 216M primer which is hotter than the commercially available 215M primer. Apparently this primer eliminates the need for a filler. If you shake a Federal .470cartridge you can hear the powder inside. I don't think you would hear anything if a wad was present. I am able to duplicate the Federal load in my gun with 89 grs. RL 15, Federal 215M primer, and a Kynoch #2 (.400-.500) over powder wad.

Geronimo

Geronomo,
Thanks. Ray must have been dissecting a Euro-load or a Searcy-load there, regarding the filler in a Federal? Not!
Sometimer's disease strikes again. (knock wood)

87 grains, gotcha.

Ray could also be saying what he thinks or imagines would be the situation with Federal 470 ammo

What would be great is to have a powder with a burn rate like 4064/Varget/Re15 etc but with a bulk like the flake shotgun powders.

Mike

Misprint on my part..Federal uses 87 not 89...but at one time they did use a filler boys, I pulled some and they had a foam ear plug on top of 87 grs. of what appeared to be RL-15 and thats what they told me the charge was when I asked them...That was when they first came out with the ammo, now perhaps I got a box of somebodys reloads or who knows what but I bought them in a sporting goods store..

Ray,
You are a slippery devil! You ought to be in politics, the way you waffled out of that one. Good show!

Mike,
I'll bet the Aussie powders would be great, though I haven't tried them, in the 470 NE. Reportedly they are more temperature insensitive than even RL-15.

Varget Extreme, about one grain more than RL-15 with same filler. Very close to RL-15, better in some applications. Gotta be a winner.

I have been procrastinating on trying H4350 Extreme and H4831SC Extreme in the 470 NE with no filler. That is on my long list of to-do's.

Thanks to you Aussies for Woodleighs and Hodgdon powders. Send more H4350! It is getting scarce on this side of the pond! G'day, mate.

Geronomo,
Where do you get your Kynoch #2 (.400-.500) over powder wads?

Spring,
The merry POM poofters at Kynamco www.kynochammunition.co.uk will be pleased to send you 100 of the precious little grey beauties for 8 pounds, 0 pence, plus shipping.
The US distributor is www.connecticutshotguns.com (Galazan's).
JCN

RIP,
I didn't last this friggen long being easy, you need to keep that in mind, the future doesn't look all that bright for you..

Ray,
I'll go find my shades, my future is so bright. You go find your teeth, then bite me.

I ordered mine direct from Kynoch:

Kynamco@aol.com

This is not a secure website and Kynoch will tell you to fax or call the credit card info in. So you might try the the other two sites listed by JCN first, they may be faster.

Geronimo

Sorry,
I mis-typed the website for Galazan's www.conecticutshotgun.com .

When I first started on my 470 project, I emailed Alliant about a load for the 470 saying that I'd heard to use RL-15. They said that Federal does use RL-15 and it is THE powder to use, but they didn't have any pressure tested load data for the 470 so they didn't give me any. I read Seyfried's article about loading the Nitro Express and his advise was the Fed 215 primer and RL-15. quickload shows that RL-19 and 22 would give lower pressures, but in the article he mentioned that more than a few English guns have let go from shooting the slower powders with no resonable explanation as to why. In the recent handloader article about pressure guessing, it mentioned that in some loads with slow powders that there were 2 pressure peaks. This might have been from the bullet getting started down the barrel then slowing down and pressure building up behind it to get it going again and that the second pressure spike could be much higher than the initial one. Maybe that's why the slower powders sometimes give problems?

Anyway, I use RL-15, Fed 215's and 5gns of Dacron over the powder. I'm shooting 85gns with a 500gn Cast bullet and 87 with the Barnes 500XLC for similar velocity and the same POI.

Where do you get your Dacron? I don't see it available at Midway or Cabelas.

Local fabric store. They sell it as stuffing for doll's and pillows. Alternatively you can swipe one of your kid's stuffed animals and pull it apart. You'll have enough for ten shells in each limb. Don't ask me how I know this.
JCN

JohnCharlieNoak,
Thanks for the German lessons and comic relief.

Does Seyfried offer elk hunting on his estate? How big a spread does he have? Is it fenced? Would he or his son be guiding canned elk and deer hunts or is it fair chase, unfenced private land that borders "wilderness." I recall seeing one ad somewhere for his place, but don't recall the name of the operation or it's location.

His place is called Elk Song Ranch . 7,000 acres. Free range. Trophy bull hunts (archery)- $7,500, cow hunts (rifle, handgun) - $2,000. He and his son do all the guiding.
(541) 963-6711
He is up by LaGrande, OR.
The application period for Oregon is done for 2004. It usually finishes up on April 15th, or thereabouts.
I thought about going up there (4 hour drive from home) last year, mainly to talk guns with Ross, but trespass fees for cows on some other ranches in central Oregon run about $750. I like to stumble around and screw up on my own.
JCN

I consider Ross a personal friend of mine, and we have a lot of friends in common...

He is about as knowledgable a gun scribe on guns and hunting and all the related issues that come up around them, as anyone I know, like all of us,who grew up around firearms, he has his mind made up..Tell him a Nosler failed and he will take you with a grain of salt from that day on...

He has some of the finest and unusual guns I have ever seen and is certainly into the last century for the most part..I would never take any advise or statement that Ross made lightly, I may not always agree, but 99.9% of the time I do, and I always respect his views even if I don't agree...Ross has been around the Horn a couple of times.

Ray,
I think Ross is top guru in the world today. If he is a personal friend, how about asking him to publish a followup statement on the "plastic worm"/foam wad problem in BPE double rifles. At least to reveal what the damage was that was done to these. HO HO GEEZ!!! Why the big secret??? Politics with antiques???

500 grains,
That is an amazing velocity difference, suggesting that the GM215M primer is much hotter than the F215. I have not seen it in my loads where I have switched. No difference for me. Maybe you got some mislabelled F216's??? That kind of velocity jump could be rough on a double rifle.

Ray,
You misunderstand my meaning. I admire Ross as much as I miss Finn Agaard. He earned Elk Song the old fashioned way. I was drawing a parallel to WDM Bell putting in his time in Africa, then buying a Scottish estate. The reason I probably won't hunt Elk Song is because I would be too busy asking questions about rifles to pay attention to the game.
Now, back to the central issue: Is there a danger of ringing a chamber (or worse) from using foam spacers with smokeless loads? I will send a query to Ross care of Handloader magazine. That will take a while. Could you give him a call and ask him if he has heard anymore about the subject?
Respectfully submitted,
JCN

JCN,
How refreshing! The polite-and-respectful-of-your-elders approach, it seems you are putting on. Yes, I miss St. Finn too. I have clipped & filed his stuff in 3-ring binders since the early 80's. Now I am doing the same with Ross Seyfried. This temporary lapse of sanity by Ross must surely be addressed. Thank's for doing something about it.

Respectfully Submitted,
I am Not Worthy

John,
I am not sure what you mean by I mis read you???? My post was not a reply to anyhthing you wrote just acknowledging that knew Ross and it was a tribute of sorts to him I suppose...
At any rate I will give him a call and see what the deal is on the foam worm...sounds like to me someone may have used the wrong material and it melted down the tube perhaps??

Thanks Ray.
I have some different types of foam ear plugs that I have been collecting for the last few days. I will feed them to the holy propane annealing flame that my girlfriend thinks I worship tonight and report on how they react (after I clean off any earwax).
JCN

500 grains,
I think you're right, another grain or two will probably put you where you want to be. Did you chrony the loads to see how far off you were?

But you didn't mention the recoil. Twelve to sixteen grains less powder has got to be noticeable. At least it was to me.

Geronomo

G,

The recoil was less. But it still kicks. Now that the temp is in the 90s, I am going to have to wear gloves to keep my fingers from getting burned. In colder weather the rifle cools down quickly so that is not an issue.

OK, I talked to Ross in length tonight....He said that much of the foam out there is ringing chambers...and says one foam that "seems" to work is the open cell foam like Kynoch is using or that is in the gun cases, but he is still not completely sold on foam...He uses dacron and says it's the only way to be sure and even dacron is to use plenty of it so that no way any air can be inside the case...The blow up are apparantly cause by a secondary missle and that being the wrong type of filler..

He believes the foam problem is due to the fact that much of the foam out there contains air spaces and when fired it flattens or compresses out and the air thats in the foam creates its own air space in the case and the remaining foam becomes the secondary missle going down the bore until the bullet catches it and splitsville...

He didn't deliberate in the article simply because he is unsure of his take on the whole picture of fillers...I can equate with that as its been a subject of great debate for the last 100 years..and many types of media have ringed and blown up barrels...

Dacron is definately the surest of fillers if one uses plenty of it so that everything is very compressed. You should be able to pick up a solid dacron plug of the ground upon firing.

I suppose I will just stick with the dacron, and use about 7 or 8 grs. in my .470 with RL-15 or just stay with IMR-4831 in my modern Searcy...

I did a lot of research on IMR-4831 over the years and came to the conclusion that double ignitions are what cause the blowups as most all of them blew out beyond the foreend, and I came to the conclusion that was from our old friend the airspace and a lack of a hot enough primer like the 216 thats not on the market...The long burning cycle of IMR-4831 never held water because it is a proven fact that it burns within 3 inches of the chambers..I also discussed this with Ross and he is in accord on that..

Frankly, I have never had any problems in reloading for any double rifles and I suspect most blow ups are from ignorance and lack of respect for the old rifles capabilities..Doubles just don't take kindly to excessive pressure, thats bolt action territory...

As far as doubles go, we still live in the dark ages, and accept many of the old rules as truth...I am finding out this is not so in many cases, many are just old wives tales..but its good advise to take the slow approach and load them with care and in particular the old English guns, they are just too valuble to ruin..

Thanks for making the call for us Ray. I will stick to dacron for now. BTW all I found out tonight is that every type of foam earplug I have burns just great in a propane flame. I think the kids are going to put in papers to have me committed in the morning.
JCN

Way To Go, Ray!

John and Ray,
In trying to find the same type of Dacron that has worked well for you, I have contacted a fabric store and was told that they have polyester fiber fill made by a company called Fairfield. Do you think this is the same stuff as polyester with the brand name of "Dacron"?

Spring,
Without gettin too far off in the weeds about the chemistry, here is the short course in Dacron. Dacron is the registered trade name for a long chain polymer invented by Dupont in the forties. It is made from ethylene glycol. A few years ago Dupont Textiles and Interiors changed its name to Invista. All dacron is made by them in two mills in Kingston, NC and Yadkinville, NC. The price has jumped over 20% in the last two years (rhymes with OPEC).
Some fabric stores are now selling generic polyester batting that is not Dacron. Here is a source for genuine Dacron in rolls: http://www.foamorder.com/products.cgi?cart=c5W0z1n612769166n5B6a8W&item=accessories
They sell the genuine stuff for $3.85 per yard. I am going to sharpen (chamfer) the mouth of an old 470 NE case and also a 50 BMG case and tap their bases to attach a stud to chuck up in a cordless drill. Then I can cut cylindrical pieces of the dacron to pack down into a case over the powder. If you cut out a window in the side of your converted case "cookie cutter" you can pluck out dacron plugs easily.
The shorter answer is don't use anything unless it has the Dacron trademark.
If you can find a fabric store that has loose Dacron by the bag just pluck, weigh and stuff as Ray has described.
JCN
When you get a feel for what real Dacron looks and feels like you can train your shorthair pup to rip your daughter/grandaughter's stuffed teddy bear apart if you run short the night before leaving to hunt/practice. My shorthairs readily learned this skill.

Thanks, John. I have 600 of the Kynoch #2 wads ordered (a lot, yes, but since they're coming from across the pond, I might as well make them last) and think I'll order some of the dacron wrap that you suggested. I'm looking forward to to working with both of them.
As you've probably figured, I'm as raw as they come when it comes to rifle relaoding. I've been reading, listening, and learning at every opportunity. I think I have all the right reloading equipment, got a chronograph in the the mail today, this past weekend built a heavy work bench to do all this on, and am trying to learn what to stuff into these empty bullets I have... If you hear a big explosion coming from the direction of Georgia, you'll know it was me!

Spring,
You are approaching this activity in a sensible and measured manner. You will do just fine. My only recommendation is that you fabricate a blast shield for your Chronograph. Don't ask me why I say this. Also, take the batteries out of your chronograph if you are storing it. Again, don't ask...
If you start off with Woodleigh bullets, and follow the secret original recipes that Ray, his unacknowledged bastard son RIP, and others have shared in this thread you will have two barrels printing together. Then you will know true bliss.
JCN

Unknowledged Bastard son??? I like that, probably will make reference to it from time to time..

My thanks also for the address of the dacron rolls..I must try that and I also have an email into Kynock..Ross said that they have not had any problem with those wads, btw...

Sir,
I resent that remark, but not as much as Ray resembles it! Are you saying that I am the offspring of a Georgia coon hound and a Texas cowpoke? If so, then smile when you say it.

I'm just afraid Ray was in Chicago in December of 1955. I'm not sure how else to explain my sudden mid-life crisis interest in 404's. I'm also told that when I was born I stole the doctor's watch and slapped the nurse on the ass so I may also be RIP's long lost half brother.

JohnCharlieNoak,
I am afraid you are more at risk than I of being Ray's unacknowledged bastard son. He would have had to get through base security checks (Air Police, of which my father was one) at Rhinestone Air Force Base (now closed down), Loring, Maine, February 1954, to be my pa. Unlikely.
You are welcome to the title of "Ray's Boy."