Anyone built one lately?

What projectiles are you using in it?

How do you fireform so you insure you build in the shoulder?

MOA

Check a little farther down for a discussion on the 400 Whelen. There is some good info from Mart. Also check out Michael Petrov's articles on the Whelen, originally published in Precision Shooting. It can be found on the web.

I am getting things together to build 2 400's as we type. I have been prepping 35 Whelen brass in anticipation. I made an expander for a Lyman M die that starts as 7/16 dia.. tapers at 15 deg. incl. to .360. There is a picture on the other thread. This gives a dia. in the shoulder area of .46. I have since sized the brass in a CH 400 Whelen die. The resulting shoulder will be plenty for fire forming. As soon as I receive my head space gages I will chamber a barrel and fire form. I will post the results but do not anticipate any problems.
I will fire form with 41 Mag. lead bullets and start load development with Hornady 300 gr. SP .311".

Thanks to guys like Mr. Petrov and Mart, building a 400 Whelen is no longer a shot in the dark.

Regards,
roughone

.411"/300g Hornady SP is first real load up to bat for roughone's 400 Whelen, eh?

I get the second 400 Whelen rifle he builds.

I think Michael Petrov has probably inspired more guys to build 400 Whelens the good Colonel himself. It was his work that finally pushed me over the edge to build mine. I got mine built last summer.

I fire form mine with Cream of Wheat and 16.4 grains of Bullseye in a 30-06 case. It's 16.4 because that's what my little dandy rotor throws. I jam a crayon in the neck to hold the COW tight and fire away. The case comes out with the shoulder formed and ready to load. Headspace has not been an issue at all.

I also use the Qual Cart brass. It's properly head stamped and excellent quality. One pass through the CH-4D dies and it's ready.

The 400 Whelen and the 400 Brown Whelen are so close in case dimensions that data is interchangeable. The 400 Whelen is really one of the first "improved" wildcats. It is more than just the 30-06 case with the neck opened up to .411. The shoulder on the 400 is .458, the 06 shoulder is .441.

I have tried the Barnes 300 grain TSX, Hornady 300 grain flat point and spire point, Woodleigh 400 grain round nose, the Hawk 300, 350 and 400 grain and the Speer 350 grain .416 resized to .411. I have not had the opportunity to try any of them on game yet. I ordered a mold from Accurate Molds that throws a 320 grain and 400 grain bullet. Both shoot well in the limited testing I've done with them.

The 400 Whelen has been a most enjoyable project and has been a trip into the earliest history of the 30-06 wildcats. The 400 Whelen is no hot rod but it is no slouch either. It was originally designed to duplicate the performance of the 450-400 Nitro Express and does just that.

While I doubt I will ever make it to Africa, the thought of a month long trek across the game fields with the 400 make for a pleasant dream.

Mart

how hard is the wax to clean out of your barrel and is it quiet enough this way you can do it in your garage if you live in town?

I have a 35 whelen improved and have thought about fireforming this way versus loading up ammo and making a trip to the range.

Red

The wax cleans out without any trouble. About every 15-20 rounds I run patch soaked in Hoppes # 9 followed by a brush and another patch or two.

I tried fire forming in my garage but it was a bit load. I tried a box full of newspaper and even some insulation but that made an awful mess. I just do it at the range now. I get a few strange looks once and a while but it saves the mess in the garage.

Mart

As stated there is another dicussion or two going on the 400 either here or down in Wildcatting.

I shoot my own 400PDK kind of a Brown Whelen on steriods. Using 2.65" cylinder brass. I love mine.

What is the incentive on the Whelan over the Hawk?

Appreciate all the information.

yea, what about the 411 hawk? i have a sedgley i keep thinking i need to re barrel.

quote:

Originally posted by MOA TACTICAL:
What is the incentive on the Whelan over the Hawk?

Appreciate all the information.

You get to be considered cool by the rest of us cool guys who have 400 Whelens.

In all seriousness there isn't a nickels worth of difference between the 400 Whelen, 400 Brown Whelen and 411 Hawk. Case capacities are very nearly the same and performance will be essentially identical.

Mart

quote:

Originally posted by mart:

In all seriousness there isn't a nickels worth of difference between the 400 Whelen, 400 Brown Whelen and 411 Hawk. Case capacities are very nearly the same and performance will be essentially identical.

Mart

A rose is a rose is a rose.

Yep, truly no way to improve the 400 Whelen. Physically impossible.
Inconsequential shoulder angle, neck length, and throat spec changes?
400 Whelen, 400 Brown Whelen, and 411 Hawk are 3 peas in the same pod.
Like 500 A-Square, 50 Peacekeeper, and ".510/460 Weatherby Improved Jenkins And Berry of 1999" aka "510 JAB" aka "50-99" ...

Whew! That was a good one! Even if I do say so myself.

quote:

A rose is a rose is a rose.

Unless its named SAM



SSR

If your magazine held 5 down in 270 will it still hold 5 down in 400 Whelan?

I can't see killing a 280, 25-06, 30-06, 9.3x62, 35 Whelan or 338-06 to build a 400 Whelan/411 Hawk. But I like killing 270s!

My bed side reader of late has been a pile of Elmer Keith books I bought cheap at a library sale. They don't do hunting books in libraries in Australia anymore.

I can't remember which 2 but in 2 of his books he talks about the 400 as though it is the only thing worth shooting.

quote:

Originally posted by MOA TACTICAL:
If your magazine held 5 down in 270 will it still hold 5 down in 400 Whelan?

I can't see killing a 280, 25-06, 30-06, 9.3x62, 35 Whelan or 338-06 to build a 400 Whelan/411 Hawk. But I like killing 270s!

My bed side reader of late has been a pile of Elmer Keith books I bought cheap at a library sale. They don't do hunting books in libraries in Australia anymore.

I can't remember which 2 but in 2 of his books he talks about the 400 as though it is the only thing worth shooting.

Mine holds five down. Elmer Keith did speak well of the 400 and used it for a number of years.

Mart

quote:

Yep, truly no way to improve the 400 Whelen. Physically impossible.
Inconsequential shoulder angle, neck length, and throat spec changes?
400 Whelen, 400 Brown Whelen, and 411 Hawk are 3 peas in the same pod.

My answer to that is it depends. My 400 PDK uses 2.65" cylinder brass left at 2.65". Normal 400gr 410 bullets loaded in the cannelure measure 3.34". If I take a Brown Whelen and load it to 3.34" then my net cpacity gain is 4 grs or 7%. Probably not much to write home about. However if you load the same bullet in the BW using the cannelure then my net capacity increase now is over 10 grs larger or over 19%.

From a 24" barrel I can send a 400gr down range at over 2300fps with my accurate hunting load of 2250. Some of my brass is now on it 10+ loading.

I agree the 400Whelen has far more history and gives up very little to later wildcats (when done correctly) If you are really going wildcat only you can decide if an extra 150-200fps with a heavy bullet is worth it.

Elmer said he was getting 2500 FPS out of the 300 grain bullet. I don't remember what his barrel length was.

Is that even remotely possible?

It's a good hammer.

quote:

Elmer said he was getting 2500 FPS out of the 300 grain bullet

I would say it is doable. QL says it is with a 24" loaded to the 60,000psi range.

I can push a 300gr hornady at over 2750. Issue is that a vast majority of the 300gr bullets (hawks included) are designed for the 405 or at best 450-400 and even 2500 fps will probaly be too high a velocity. I turn the 300s to gray mist when they hit. Fantastic on a waterjug and kills on hogs but I wouldn't trust them on much else.

Petrov had some 2500fps loads in his article.

I'd say lightly compressed loads of something like 4895

quote:

Originally posted by MOA TACTICAL:
Elmer said he was getting 2500 FPS out of the 300 grain bullet. I don't remember what his barrel length was.

Is that even remotely possible?

It's a good hammer.

I've seen his rifle a few times at the Boise Cabelas display. It strikes me that it was a 26 inch barrel but I am not sure. Mine is a 24 inch and I have had no trouble getting into the high 2400's with 300 grain bullets.

Mart

quote:

Mine is a 24 inch and I have had no trouble getting into the high 2400's with 300 grain bullets.

Mart,
What 300gr? Do they hold up to 2400fps? I've used the Hornady and Hawks and they can't handle my velocity. For something lighter I've been running 416 350 magtips through a sizer.

I am guessing that the Barnes X bullet works fine?

quote:

I am guessing that the Barnes X bullet works fine

You are probably 100% correct. Let me rephrase and say the various 300gr bullets costing less than a buck a piece that I have tried haven't held up. The Woodleighs would proably work as well.

I use the 300s for plinking and if I want to hit hard I go 400s. If I'm serious about a 300gr I drop back to my 380PDK same case just .375. Something like the Barnes would probably make a great load in the Whelen.

I don't have a problem with X bullets, but would prefer something that is denser.

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:

quote:

Mine is a 24 inch and I have had no trouble getting into the high 2400's with 300 grain bullets.

Mart,
What 300gr? Do they hold up to 2400fps? I've used the Hornady and Hawks and they can't handle my velocity. For something lighter I've been running 416 350 magtips through a sizer.

Ramrod,

I just built it last summer so didn't get enough load development done to hunt with as our seasons start in August and end in late September. I haven't had the opportunity to try it on game yet but am planning on carrying it for everything this year. I suspect the 300 grain bullets other than the Barnes will be pretty fragile at 2400+. I'm with you on the heavier bullets. Mine really likes the resized Speer .416 350's. My thought going into this was that I was going to be using a 350-400 grain bullet. Right now I have a box of Hawk 400 grain loaded and ready to hunt with simply because those were the bullets I had enough left of after load testing. I need to order some more Barnes, Woodleighs and Speers to load for hunting as well as checking at ranges further than 100 yards.

Mart

Mart,

Years ago I built a 416 version but at 2.5" case. My buddy used it for about 10 years in Alaska using the 340 Woodleigh. While the 350 Speers are a pain in the butt to form I will be pretty much using them for a light load. Leaving my remaining 300gr Hornady's for paper and water jugs. That they do well. I bought 100s of the 400 Hornday DGX when Midway had them as Blems several years ago. Doubt I will run out in this lifetime.

Be curious to hear more of your load development.

MOA I was using the .035 300gr Hawk. I was not pleased at all. But I was pushing them over 2700fps. If I wanted a more dense bullet I might consider the Hawk 325gr with the .05 jacket.

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:

quote:

Mine is a 24 inch and I have had no trouble getting into the high 2400's with 300 grain bullets.

Mart,
What 300gr? Do they hold up to 2400fps? I've used the Hornady and Hawks and they can't handle my velocity. For something lighter I've been running 416 350 magtips through a sizer.

Ramrod,

I forgot to mention I've tried the 300 grain Hornadys, both FP and SP, the 300 Barnes TSX and the 300 Hawk (.035 jacket). The Hawks, both the 300 and 350 didn't shoot well at all in my rifle. Both the Hornadys and the Barnes shoot extremely well, although the Hornadys don't feed very well at all. Too stubby I guess. The 300 Barnes feeds perfectly as do all the other bullets I've tried (400 Woodleigh, 400 Hawk, 350 Speer resized, 350 Hawk and two cast bullets, a 320 and 400 grain).

Midway has some of the .410 400 grain blems right now. I think I'll order a box or two to try. I wish Swift would run a batch of their 350 grain A frame .411's. I've heard they run some once in a while.

As far as load development I started with Michael Petrov's data, some data from a Kronfeld 400 Brown Whelen article and some various snippets of data I've been able to mine here and there.

I've tried a number of powders, but 3031 and H4895 have been great performers for me, giving both accuracy and expected velocities. I have been working some with RL15 and it is showing promise. I have more work to do yet with it. I tried 4064 and BL-C2 but found them too slow. IMR-4198 has shown some promise but I need to work more with it before I can really say. I expect RL10 would be a good choice as well but have not tried it yet.

For brass I have been using Qual Cart's 400 Whelen brass and some LC Match stuff that I fireformed. I generally see a little higher velocities out of the match brass as it is slightly heavier and has a little less capacity than the QC brass.

I have been a reloader for 35 years but this is the first wildcat I have ever played with. It has been a truly fun project and I never get tired of trying new loads in it. I did have to get a Lead Sled for my range work. The 400 has enough recoil in an 8.5 pound gun to make one take notice and the Sled takes out some of that fatigue from a long afternoon at the bench.

I think the good Colonel had a winner in this round. It's a shame that it unfairly got the reputation it did for "headspace" issues. I am anxious to line up on a caribou and/or a moose this year with it.

Well I just got off a 12 hour night shift so I've got to get some sleep.

Mart

Mart,
Looking at the current Blem price for the 400s I'm glad I bought a lifetime supply a couple of years ago.

I've never run the Barnes through mine. I had to open up the rails on my MKX to get the 400s to feed perfectly. After that even the FP 300 Hornady's ran fine. The Hawks shot OK in mine but simply didn't hold up in the field. I wonder if you could resize the 350gr 416 swift like the speer?

I normally use IMR 4895 for my 300s. With the 350s and 400s I get basically the same velocity potential with 4895 and RL15 but the RL15 is more accurate in rifle.

Just to give you an idea of what mine looks like the second from the left is the 300FP and the second from the right is the 400DGX. Center is the 375Whelen. Yours would have the shoulder in the same place but shaped like mine.

I agree the 400 Whelen died because bad press written with incorrect facts.

Ramrod,

You are correct. The 400 Whelen does look like yours, just a trifle shorter. I have had no feeding problems with mine other than the short 300 grainers.

Here's a look at the 30-06, 35 Whelen and 400 Whelen for a side by side comparison.



The bad press thing has killed more than one cartridge. I don't know where people come up with their ideas sometimes. One poster on another forum was convinced that the blow of the firing pin would be enough to drive the case in past the shoulder on the 400. I've even heard it espoused that the 35 Whelen hasn't enough shoulder on which to headspace. I deliberately left the shoulder too long on a couple of cases to see if I could force the case to push past the shoulder on my 400. It would take a better man than me to move the case past the shoulder with what force could be applied to the bolt handle.

I like your 400 PDK and 20 years ago probably would have gone a similar route. But over time I have become more interested in the Whelen rounds more for nostalgia than anything.

Mart

quote:

I deliberately left the shoulder too long on a couple of cases to see if I could force the case to push past the shoulder on my 400. It would take a better man than me to move the case past the shoulder with what force could be applied to the bolt handle

For awhile I carried a shoulder forward case with me just to prove that same point. I built the my 380&400PDKs using the same design as the rest of my smaller calibers that are built using 280 brass. I simply went with the longer brass on the 380&400 because it was available reduced my case loss from forming and allowed me to use the cannelures and have a OAL of around 3.34". My shoulder is .46 the Whelen .458 only real differnce is my shoulder if forward and case is longer.

Yes my 400 will give me a 400gr at or above old 404J velocity. But in the real world I doubt much hit with either my 400 or the Whelen would ever know the difference.

quote:

Originally posted by mart:

The bad press thing has killed more than one cartridge. I don't know where people come up with their ideas sometimes. One poster on another forum was convinced that the blow of the firing pin would be enough to drive the case in past the shoulder on the 400. I've even heard it espoused that the 35 Whelen hasn't enough shoulder on which to headspace. I deliberately left the shoulder too long on a couple of cases to see if I could force the case to push past the shoulder on my 400. It would take a better man than me to move the case past the shoulder with what force could be applied to the bolt handle.

I like your 400 PDK and 20 years ago probably would have gone a similar route. But over time I have become more interested in the Whelen rounds more for nostalgia than anything.

Mart

Th headspace is an issue with factory ammo. For example Dakota used the 416 Rigby Improved case for their 450 Dakota instead of the 404 case. But as wildcats 404 Imoroveds neck to 45 are common.

One other issue with headspace and with calibres with heavy bullets is headpsaced can be increased if a round is repeatedly slammed into the chamber but not fired.

The firing pin is not the problem but rather force of the primer. For example, stick a primed 35 When in the chamber and fire the primer. Then deprime and reprimed and do it again and you progress head space will increase. This occurs with very reduced loads (sqib loads) because the press is no enough to fireform the shortened case. But this will even happen with a 308 which as you know has plenty of shoulder.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:

quote:

Originally posted by mart:

The bad press thing has killed more than one cartridge. I don't know where people come up with their ideas sometimes. One poster on another forum was convinced that the blow of the firing pin would be enough to drive the case in past the shoulder on the 400. I've even heard it espoused that the 35 Whelen hasn't enough shoulder on which to headspace. I deliberately left the shoulder too long on a couple of cases to see if I could force the case to push past the shoulder on my 400. It would take a better man than me to move the case past the shoulder with what force could be applied to the bolt handle.

I like your 400 PDK and 20 years ago probably would have gone a similar route. But over time I have become more interested in the Whelen rounds more for nostalgia than anything.

Mart

Th headspace is an issue with factory ammo. For example Dakota used the 416 Rigby Improved case for their 450 Dakota instead of the 404 case. But as wildcats 404 Imoroveds neck to 45 are common.

One other issue with headspace and with calibres with heavy bullets is headpsaced can be increased if a round is repeatedly slammed into the chamber but not fired.

The firing pin is not the problem but rather force of the primer. For example, stick a primed 35 When in the chamber and fire the primer. Then deprime and reprimed and do it again and you progress head space will increase. This occurs with very reduced loads (sqib loads) because the press is no enough to fireform the shortened case. But this will even happen with a 308 which as you know has plenty of shoulder.

Like I said I don't know where people come up with their ideas sometimes.

quote:

Th headspace is an issue with factory ammo. For example Dakota used the 416 Rigby Improved case for their 450 Dakota instead of the 404 case. But as wildcats 404 Imoroveds neck to 45 are common.

One other issue with headspace and with calibres with heavy bullets is headpsaced can be increased if a round is repeatedly slammed into the chamber but not fired.

The firing pin is not the problem but rather force of the primer. For example, stick a primed 35 When in the chamber and fire the primer. Then deprime and reprimed and do it again and you progress head space will increase. This occurs with very reduced loads (sqib loads) because the press is no enough to fireform the shortened case. But this will even happen with a 308 which as you know has plenty of shoulder.

Sorry you lost me.