Safari Classics CZ-USA Ammunition has been delivered to dealers, in .505 Gibbs, .450 Rigby, and .404 Jeffery.

It is obviously made by A-Square, but the headstamp has "CZ-USA .505 Gibbs" encircling the primer. It is loaded with the A-Square Dead Tough soft point and the Monolithic Solid.

In .505 Gibbs both soft and solid are 525 grains and 2300 fps is specified on the box, a ten-round wallet in the A-Square plastic container of latest gray color.

Price is $132.99 for solid ammo, 10 rounds, and $138.99 for ten softs!

Can anyone out there beat that price?

Anyway, I have confidence that A-square in Jeffersonville, IN, has no soft brass problems anymore. Surely Jim Smith, CEO, with Art Alphin as technical advisor has overcome that catastrophe.

I'll bet Art sued the feds over the ATF invasion and got some money to rebuild the business.

I just wonder if the terms of the settlement included hush money and exclusion of Alphin from direct control of A-Square? Just gossip? Could such an underhanded thing have been done by the federales?

Nevermind I'm an idiot.

fusino,
Don't be bashful. There is no idiocy here as long as it is honest.
What good fun have I missed here?

Anyway, to continue the self-reply tradition:

The CZ/A-Square .505 Gibbs (.505 Rimless Magnum) loads have more shake and rattle with the soft than with the solid, and my trained ear tells me that one of the loads is as follows:

Bullet: 525 grain Dead Tough
Case: CZ/A-Square
Primer: CCI-250
Powder: RL-22 136.0 grains
Velocity: 2328 fps (26" barrel)
Pressure: 34,900 PSI

All that from listening to a cartridge shaken beside my ear.

Obviously some gouging on prices is going on for the first stuff to show up from CZ. The suggested retail on the .505 ammo is $120 for 10 solids and $125 for 10 softs.

Jamison brass ought to be as good as Horneber brass, then to find some bullets ...

I was just going to post that midwayusa has the ammo for cheaper than the prices in your original post. However after shipping it would probably be more expensive and more of a pain. And it looks like you've found even lower prices than midway's now, so my whole point is now officially moot! Hehe.

Brother RIP,
I am sending a proposal letter to Wyoming in about ten minutes. If it finds a sympathetic audience with the wizard of monometal and bonded projectiles I will embark on an intensive R&D program over the next six months while I wait for the ATF to reactivate my ammunition manufacturers license.
The result will be the best bullets on earth in the best brass available for any given caliber fueled by the right amount of the best powder for each application; factory crimped and sealed fore and aft.
I am looking at 375 H&H, 416 Rem Mag, 416 Rigby, 404 Jeffery, 458 Win Mag and 458 Lott to start. If the market is there I will add 9.3x62, 376 Steyr, 375 WBY, 416 Taylor.
Think Lapua, RWS, Horneber, Winchester and Hornady brass as appropriate. RL-15, Varget, H-4350, and H-4831 powders over 215M or WLRM primers.
Think matched Soft Nose and Solid ammunition with the same trajectories. Cup points for the discriminating hunter.
I can beat that price point. Strictly internet, facsimile and phone sales. No middle men. Actual shipping costs only.
lawndart

Damn you RIP! Do you realize that with every susequent post about the new CZ in 505 Gibbs (or about the ammo, etc) that you guys are pushing me closer and closer every day to ordering one? I ËneedËanother rifle like a third eye. Damnit! I am so weak....

Whitworth,
You'll get no help from me. That would be like having a whore as confessor to your sexual transgressions.

lawndart,
What is the brand name going to be?

Prices like that will stimulate brass sales
from Jameson for those doing their own.Ed

quote:

What is the brand name going to be?

I was thinking "Epiphany Ammunition", but with the the holy father John Paul II about to pass away have decided to go back to the drawing board.

lawndart

I hear you RIP, but what can I do? I guess that I just have to give in to temptation......gosh, I am soooooo weak. I just can't help myself. Epiphany ammunition -- very funny!!

Sorry RIP, I can load 100rds w/ NFs for that price, geeze, what a "rip"!

Well, for one, you can't load 100 round sof .505 for $132. At least not any way that I know of. Add up the cost of the bullets, primers, powder, and a cost/reload for brass. And there is a cost associated with time, phone calls, email, credit card charges, shipping, whatever it takes to get everything assembled in your relaoding rooms. ANd there is a cost/round for the dies and shell holder. And many people will buy a bigger press for the round, resulting in an additional cost/round of ammo.

As fo rthe price, that is in line with I and the others here figured it would cost. General concnesous was that Gibbs ammo would have a wholesale cost of at least $200/20 rounds. And this was from some one like Federal. Given the adressable market for Gibbs ammo, this is a good price. Very absic business prinicples.

Persoannly, i won't be buying A-Square ammo any time soon any way. I am relaoding with Hornberner brass and if I didn't, i would find other ammo some where

You get 505 brass for a buck from Jamison,
that will last 20-50 reloads(they are built
with proper thick bases) and bullets
reasonable(they are out there) you can load
for less than 2 bucks each figuring cost over
life of the brass.505 volume shooting is
where reloaders can get it on.Ed.

Spread the word, Jamison .505 Gibbs brass will be built with a head like the .408 Cheyenne Tactical, which is a reinforced, slightly shortened, necked down .505 Gibbs that Jamison has been supplying to the .408 CheyTac folks.

$106 includes the shipping and handling for 100 pieces of .505 Gibbs brass from Jamison. Send Marc Jamison a letter with a check if you want some. I have toured his plant. It is a going concern, a happenin' place, in Sturgis, SD, Rifle Mecca.

Jamison International, Inc.
Marc Jamison, Owner
3551 Mayer Avenue
Sturgis, SD 57785

605-347-5090
605-347-4704 FAX

jamisonintl@rushmore.com

The Nickudu loads using 120 grains of RL-15 with 4 or 5 grains of Dacron filler and 570 to 600 grain bullets at about 2300 fps make good sense.

How about a case full of H50BMG and no filler??? ...

And a case full of WC-870(or AA8700) -- and
probably even WC-860 would really get it
on..You could get my kind of velocities.
Like 3000 fps.Ed.

quote:

.505 volume shooting is
where reloaders can get it on.Ed.

Ed:

I understand that you routinely play with calibers larger than most of us would ever shot, so your idea of “high volume .505 shooting†may be a little different from the rest of the world. You obviously have a CNS and skeletal structure that is designed for more punishment than mine can take, that’s for sure! To keep things in perspective for the typical person out there, I think “high volume .505 shooting†would be considerable lower. There is no way to know, but I would really like to see how many people on the planet have ever touched off 500 .505 rounds? In the big picture, it is an incredibly small group. INCREDIBLY SMALL group of shooters. And if we want to carry it to extremes, a much, much smaller group have shot a .505 1000 times in their lives. I know folks are buying some CZ in .505 and have big plans to make this a regular weekend paper-puncher, but most of these folks have not touched off a round of .505 ammo in their life. After the first box or two, I feel with a high degree of certainty that the overwhelming majority of .505 owners will redefine their personal notion of â€high volume .505 shooting.†This is the reality for almost every one on the planet.

Looking at it in the context of what is reality for all but a literal handful of people on the planet, the cost breakdown looks something like this for an owner who will shoot his rifle 500 times and one who will shoot it 100 times. And remember, in the real world, both of these examples are extreme. I’ll throw in 250 rounds of shooting as well, as it is more realistic though still in the realm of a very dedicated person and far above what will actually be touched off by the typical .505 owner.

Powder-I’ll use the 120 gr. of RL 15 listed in the previous post.

Primer-Fed Magnum LR primer

Bullets-Hawk 535 gr. Soft nose and Woodleigh 600 gr. Solid. Hawk bullets cost $1.17 each, while Woodleighs cost $1.88 each.

Case-Hornberner price and “Jamison†price. I have no experience with Jamison and have no reason to doubt that you are correct in saying it is very high quality brass. 20-50 reloads is a very, very high number. Personally, I have never gotten anywhere near 50 reloads with any case at all. Necks split, shoulders collapse, whatever. Back when I shot pistols in competition, we always shot split brass, but it was not going 50 rounds per case either. And I know no one who would shoot split .505 brass. I am just throwing this out there. As for the vast percentage of rifle reloaders I know, I would say 10 rounds is closer to the typical maximum number of reloads that a shooter will use for a piece of brass. So a price per round of Hornberner and Jamison will be calculated. Also, I seriously doubt any .505 shooters will take full advantage of 50 reloads on 100 pieces of brass. That is 5000 rounds of .505 fired!!! The cost for 50 pieces of Jamison brass will be used in the calculations

Reloading dies-Assume the far cheaper CH4D dies in this calculation. RCBS dies are about 3 times as much. The shell holder is RCBS.

Reloading press-not every one can use their old press to reload the Gibbs, so I will throw in an adder in one calculation to determine the true cost per round of a reloaded .505 round for some one in that position. This is for an RCBS Extreme press.

These are real world prices, assuming you can buy the powder and primers within a few miles drive from your home, with the balance being bought over the internet. All cost is in USD.

Rounds fired 250 500 1000

Dies & SH .80 .40 .20

Powder .45 .45 .45

Primer .02 .02 .02


Hornberner
Brass 2.22 2.22 2.22

Total 3.49 3.09 2.89

Press .48 .24 .12

Total 3.98 3.33 3.01


Brass
Jamison 1.12 1.12 1.12

Total 2.39 1.99 1.79

Press .48 .24 .12

Total 2.87 2.23 1.91

.505 ammo with Hornberner brass and not buying a new press:

Hawk 4.66 4.26 4.06

Woodleigh 5.37 5.21 4.89
.
505 ammo with Hornberner brass and buying a new press:

Hawk 5.15 4.50 4.18

Woodleigh 5.86 5.21 4.89

.505 ammo with Jamison brass and not buying a new press:

Hawk 3.56 3.16 2.96

Woodleigh 4.27 3.87 3.67

.505 ammo with Jamison brass and buying a new press:

Hawk 3.04 3.40 3.08

Woodleigh 4.75 4.11 3.79

So there you go, real world costs of shooting a .505. It ranges from $2.96/round (Jamison brass, Hawk bullet, no new press, 1000 rounds fired) to $5.86/round (Hornberner brass, Woodleigh bullet, new press, 250 rounds fired). This is how you calculate the actual costs of ammo. Technically, there should be some overhead costs, but for the purposes of this exercise, I omitted them. There is also no costs included associated with labor included in these calculations.

Please understand I am in no way writing this to be contrary or to start any kind of pissing match. I personally reload for the .505 and I wanted to know what it was costing me, and I wanted to keep that in context of the post (i.e.-factory vs. reloaded ammo)

sorry about the formatting - I should have made a table

The extra loads per case, that I would get, only lower the brass cost a little(10 loads per case is 10 cents a round, 20 loads per case
5 cents a round).For 1000 round shooting
schedule I'd use surplus
powder(and the best way to make brass last 20+ rounds) at $8 a pound, 40 loads per pound.With Hawk bullets at 1.20, primer 2 cents, brass cost with 10 reloads at 10 cents( here is big
savings as brass would normally be 4times as much and only last a third as long), and surplus powder at 20 cents; with
dies figured at 20 cents for 1000 rounds,
and 10 cents for a press(a brand new super
magnum, bmg LEE is only 78 bucks delivered) for 1000 round schedule;
but presses are used on everything else also,
you have less than two bucks($1.82).For a
500 round schedule you would add 30 cents
to the cost for the press and dies, giving
$2.12..But my premise is that, the range of prices you show or what I show are a huge improvement over 13 bucks each in a ten pack.Ed.

yes, it is cheaper reloading even with my numbers. one of the main reasosn I did that was too see what it cost me per round. I am using th eRockchucker press, so no new one. WHat powder were you talking about? DO you have much load data for the .505?

Thanks for the cost analysis guys. It ain't as bad as a .700 NE, in many ways. It is just a little bit crazy if you look at it that way.

One thing is sure, at traditional load pressures (about 35Kpsi) the loads are as low pressure as many double rifle loads, and case life should be at least 10 firings.

There sure isn't much load data for the .505 Gibbs out there. Nickudu's loads are a great start, as is the A-Square manual for the medium-slow powders that don't fill the case either.

Full case loads of even slower stuff, there be the fire-breathing dragon's lair!

A case full of WC-870 or 872, about the same as
AA-8700, will get great power. Can be bought
for $8 a lb.Sometimes less.A ball powder,and never use less than 90% load density, and
90% is the starting point..Try a
pound of AA8700 ball to see what you get.
If a little slow try AA-Magpro.If Magpro
works good then WC-860 surplus might work
and I will be be testing them this summer
for comparison..Ed,