The loads before test fire, color coded primers:





The color code for Sharpie marking of the primers:

Plain: 58.0 grains of H4198 with .411/317-gr GSC HV
Red: 72.0 grains of RL-17 with .411/400-gr Woodleigh RNSN
Green: 67.0 grains of VARGET with .411/400-gr Woodleigh RNSN
Blue: 67.0 grains of H4895 with .411/400-gr Woodleigh RNSN



Pressure Champ:



Accuracy Champ:



The single "fully blown primer" found on the shooting bench after effortless extraction and ejection of the last shot fired,
no. 4 of the ten H4895 loads, I was done for the day, six were left unfired:



Besides the one primer that fell out, 3 each of each load fired were deprimed and primer pockets measured with Rusty McGee's primer pocket gages:



I will work down from here:

H4198 58.0 grains + 317-grain GSC HV >>> MV = 2482 fps

RL-17 72.0 grains + 400-grain Woodleigh RNSN >>> MV = 2289 fps

VARGET 67.0 grains + 400-grain Woodleigh RNSN >>> MV = 2313 fps

H4895 67.0 grains + 400-grain Woodleigh RNSN >>> MV = 2391 fps

Witnessed by Rusty McGee who said: "Physics does not allow it."

Fool Physics once, shame on me, fool Physics twice, shame on me again ...

The Woodleigh loads required emergency re-seating after arrival at the range,
because the original 3.550" C.O.L. of the compressed loads had grown too long for the bolt to close.
They were re-seated to 3.450",
then fired quickly before they re-grew.
They need a second cannelure and a crimp before the next outing.

May I ask why are you using a home made action or barrel.

Or just seeing what you rifle will with stand.

Your primer doesn't look that flattened so it could be your brass is soft. Quality brass tends to be soft from what I've heard.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
May I ask why are you using a home made action or barrel.

Or just seeing what you rifle will with stand.

What! Nobody giving me hell for showing off this irresponsible handloading data?
No intentional proofing going on here, just a Winchester M70 Classic Stainless action from Connecticut
with a Shilen No.4 Sporter stainless 25" barrel that is 0.660" diameter at the muzzle.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Your primer doesn't look that flattened so it could be your brass is soft. Quality brass tends to be soft from what I've heard.

QualCart brass can be soft or hard depending on who supplied the basic blank brass to Peter Cardona.
Pete is not telling who made the 400 Whelen blank basic brass.

Even different lots of blank basic from Hornady can vary in soft/hard quality, I guess.
The 500 Mbogo brass he made for me was perfect, he used .416 blank basic cylindrical from Hornady to apply the headstamp to.
The .395 Tatanka brass he made for me, I suspect was soft, caused sticky extraction, it was Hornady too.
Shoot it a few times and it gets hard too.
Using Norma .416 Rigby to make .395 Tatanka before proper headstamp was available was perfect.

This 400 Whelen QualCart brass has caused no previous problems attributable to softness. Never sticky extraction.
Perfect performance in every way, once Peter got the neck thickness right (internal doughnut on first batch had to be sent back and re-worked).
It is of greater capacity/thinner than Remington 35 Whelen that is used to make 400 Whelen brass by fire-forming.
The extractor cut ahead of the rim seems to weaken the head by its roominess compared to the Remington brass.

These loads were meant to push the invelope at 60 to 65 Kpsi, when 3.550" for C.O.L.
But the compressed loads with 400-grainers grew longer after seating, and were hastily seated down to 3.450" by a quick trip from range to shop and back to range before firing.
Maybe pressure was excessive.

Primer pockets enlarged from .2090" diameter to .2095" or more!!!

The "Proof Loads" ruin the brass as far as reloading goes.
This was the second firing with hot loads for all this brass, hotter on the second firing.

QuickLOAD predictions for the "Blown Primer Load," 67.0 grains H4895 + 400-grain Woodleigh:

Analysis: Probably a +75,000 psi load,
since the 2387 fps line shows a pressure of 75,863 psi with 69.7 grains of H4895,
and my load was 2391 fps MV with 67.0 grains of H4895,
if the Oehler is to be trusted for that 4-shot average of velocity.

I have a fast lot of H4895 for my 67.0 grain charge:

With 3.550" C.O.L:
60,336 psi
Powder lot variation range: 49,639psi/2185fps to 71,299psi/2334fps

With 3.450" C.O.L.:
66,665 psi
Powder lot variation range: 54,749psi/2225fps to 78,918psi/2369fps

I have seen the elephant! Yep, it was a proof load, proof of stupidity! Does "Darwin Award" come to mind?



QuickLOAD 3.550" C.O.L.:



QuickLOAD 3.450" C.O.L.:

Ron ; I've learned so much from you over the years that the last thing I would ever think of doing is negatively commenting on your ( Experiments) . .

Yup, I would say that getting 2400 fps with a 400 gr bullet in a 25" barrel, From a necked up 06 case was seeing the Elephant Real Close and living to tell about it.
Wowwee Kazowee! .



But I've done some interesting experiments also. Like freezing my 6.5 Creedmoor to-45°F then fireing it with book load 41.5 gr H4350 and a 140 gr Hornady soft point sptz. That was approximately +70°F .. First shot was 3008 fps 2 nd was 2970 something 3 rd shot was in the 2800s and the 4 th was around 2700 fps. .
But, I proved 3 things. Factory Ruger stainless barrels don't shatter in the cold ( tho I don't think I'll try warm ammo at 50 below.
Ruger actions are tough.
And. Long range ( 400 yards and beyond) It will be extremely difficult to tell what your drop and drift will be for more than 1 shot strings.

We live and we learn. But if we don't try we remain ignorant.
Good job.
P.S. you are going to reduce that 4895 load aren't you??

Well just goes to show if you don't mind blown primers you can match my 400PDK velocities.

Slightly larger case and OAL of 3.34 2371 is what I have loaded to. Those cases are on their 4th or 5th loading. Have not tried RL17 or a bullet with lower bearing surface.

Question is how hard to you need to hit something.

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
... But I've done some interesting experiments also. Like freezing my 6.5 Creedmoor to-45°F then fireing it with book load 41.5 gr H4350 and a 140 gr Hornady soft point sptz. That was approximately +70°F .. First shot was 3008 fps 2 nd was 2970 something 3 rd shot was in the 2800s and the 4 th was around 2700 fps. .
But, I proved 3 things. Factory Ruger stainless barrels don't shatter in the cold ( tho I don't think I'll try warm ammo at 50 below.
Ruger actions are tough.
And. Long range ( 400 yards and beyond) It will be extremely difficult to tell what your drop and drift will be for more than 1 shot strings.

CTF,
Yes indeed, I will reduce that H4895 load for 400-grainers! I lived, and I learned.
Also, no more hasty deep seating when the non-crimped compressed loads Pinocchio in tha ammo box and the bolt won't close on them at the range!

Your Cold Rifle experiment is interesting, beyond the fact that the rifle did not shatter.
You put +70 F ammo in a -45 F rifle magazine and shot them as the ammo cooled in the rifle?
And it made that much difference in H4350 loads?

"Ballistic Thermal Independence" (BTI) must not be a linear function of temperature. Parabolic?
Your max temperature change could have been -115 F, and max velocity change -308 fps, so 308/115 = 2.68 fps/degree F.

IIRC, in the +32 F to +70 F range in a .375 WBY I got about this:

H4350: 0.5 fps/degree F
RL-15: 1.0 fps/degree F
IMR-4350: 2.0 fps/degree F

Carry on.

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:
Well just goes to show if you don't mind blown primers you can match my 400PDK velocities.

Slightly larger case and OAL of 3.34 2371 is what I have loaded to. Those cases are on their 4th or 5th loading. Have not tried RL17 or a bullet with lower bearing surface.

Question is how hard to you need to hit something.

ramrod340:

Please remind me of what the 400 PDK case capacity gross water is.
And what powder charge gets a 400-grainer to 2371 fps with a C.O.L of 3.34" in what length barrel?

Capacity from memory is 87. I will verify it tomorrow. Douglas 24" barrel I transferred Quickload to my new PC and LOST all my wildcats I had loaded into the data base. So need to reload it.

I show the load as 4895 on my spreadsheet. I believe IMR 66 grs gave me 2371 65gr was 2351. 67 RL15 gave 2316 Accuracy load is 65 gr Rl 15 for 2256. With a FIRM crimp.

My free bore is around .5".


I thought when you started we had compared and at the same OAL I was about 75-100fps faster. Again that is memory which stinks anymore.

The high velocity was cold constriction of the barrel. As it warmed and expanded from the heat of fireings, and the ammo cooled the velocity moderated. .
I've had similar results with cro mo steel in the cold.
I wanted to see what would happen since a guy told me the barrel would shatter. . I think it made the guy mad that I proved him wrong.

After having morning coffee this is what I measured. Case capacity was 87+. Measured 3 cases and got 87.2 on 2 and 87.1 on the other. so I'd say 87 would be a good number. Case length is 2.65" OAL is 3.34". I didn't measure the exact freebore (too lazy to dig the rifle out of the safe) but I know it exceeds .5"

I want to stress my data is from 1 rifle. Rip and the others have been pulling together a lot more data than I have. But looking at Rips data above I noticed his case is now longer and higher capacity than I remember from our earlier discussions.

Someone with time on their hands could calculate the net capacity difference.

As I've said before using the true 400 Whelen case and loading to the same OAL the PDKs gain is 75-100fps. Since I'm built on a M98 without work I can't go much longer. Plus at 2.65" case length and 400 Hornady's in the cannleure gives me 3.34".

If whatever I'm shooting can tell the difference between 2250 and 2350 with a 400gr bullet and it is CRITICAL then it is time for a much larger case.



Something to look at with your
This has the Whelen with an 06 length. The true Whelen is .458 at the shoulder I'm .46. Assuming loading to the same OAL only real NET capacity difference is my shoulder is at 2.18" vs 1.86". In case you are wondering the 411 Express was a Z-hat wildcat using the 411 hawk reamer and 9.3x66 sako brass.

All said and done a 400 Whelen, PDK Hawk what ever your choice is a heck of a lot of fun and will get the job done on just about anything you care to shoot.

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
The high velocity was cold constriction of the barrel. As it warmed and expanded from the heat of fireings, and the ammo cooled the velocity moderated. .
I've had similar results with cro mo steel in the cold.
I wanted to see what would happen since a guy told me the barrel would shatter. . I think it made the guy mad that I proved him wrong.

I realized i forgot about the barrel expansion with warming as i dozed off to sleep last night.
Internal and external diameters of a hoop or pipe are increased as it warms up.

Cooling of the warm ammo in the rifle magazine box would be insignificant, as you imply.

So i was way off on my interpretation of the barrel splitting test.

It was not an indication of powder "BTI" (or lack of it) at all!
Whew! what a relief!
My trust in the Hodgdon Extreme line is preserved!
I'll sleep well tonight.

So for BTI testing of powder at various ambient temperatures, the barrel temperature and load temperatures must be kept as constant as possible.

Thanks for getting that through my thick skull.

"There is many a slip twixt the cup and Rip."

Drool bucket on!

Paul,
I'll see what QL says about your 400 PDK and my accidental proof load.

400 PDK 2.650" case with 87.17 grains gross water capacity loaded to 3.340" C.O.L. with 400-grain Woodleigh has a smaller effective/net case capacity

than the 400 Whelen-B 2.505" case with 82.20 grains gross water capacity loaded to 3.450" C.O.L. with same bullet.

Useable case capacities:

400 PDK: 0.2643 cubic inches = 4.331 cc = 66.71 gr H2O
400 W-B: 0.2785 cubic inches = 4.563 cc = 70.29 gr H2O

If my load was a 107 % load in the 400 W-B
it would be a 113 % load in the 400 PDK,
for 67.0 grains of H4895.

Proof Load.

There is a sticky wicket with the barrel and ammo temp being the same, at least in extreme cold.
I don't thing that copper and lead have the same expansion and contraction as at least 416 R stainless does.
But, I may be wrong.

Anyway I apologize prufusly for the derail.
And I appreciate the indulgence. On many other forums a non " within the norms " statement or question is met with derision or worse. .
Thanks.!

Rip,

Refresh me who makes your brass? Did you change the shoulder location on the 400Whelen-B.

Assuming you didn't alter the shoulder then either via thinner brass, web or both your brass makes up for my "slightly" less taper and shoulder forward.

Before I started using Cylinder brass I used necked up Norma. It measured 82.2 at 2.47" Looking at your brass my cylinder and the norma with a Hornady at 3.34" Your net is 63.78 mine is 63.919 and the Norma would have been 64.959. Too close to call in my book. One issue I can't explain my loaded ammo is 3.34" for the 400s. That is in the cannelure. However the spread sheet with the 2371fps load has 3.4". I don't know if it was simply a input error or I had actually used the longer length. Playing with QL 3.4" makes more sense. Either way the load would have been 108-110% and pressure higher than I care to use. But the results were duplicated a second loading.

If I load out to 3.45 net increases to 67.6.

Like you I was pushing it when I made my higher velocity. I was shooting for 2400. Didn't make it.

For a hunting load I have several that are in the 2250fps range and that is fine for me. I also can't stress enough the results were one rifle, one lott of powder etc.

With your thinner brass net capacities are basically equal and equal OAL loading out you gain over me.

I would love to try your brass in my chamber and see what the capacity ended up. Even more would love to find either your brass or norma cylinder that I could leave at 2.65"

As I stated in your Whelen thread loaded to the same OAL the two of them are pretty darn close. Using capacity from your first brass I had and advantage in net capacity. Your new brass eliminates that. Set up for 3.45" your Whelen-B has the clear advantage.

But from an appearance sake I think my bullet in the cannelure looks better.

RIP- it's interesting that my old long throat .405 win load used 68 gr of H4895 and with a 400 gr bullet just hit 2400fps. That was specifically done with a encore rifle and was operating at 65kpsi. Looks like a near ballistic twin of your 400 B whelan.the encore worked pretty well and even took a deer at one of Jeffes hunts!-Rob

ramrod340,

The brass is Quality Cartridge cylindrical basic with "400 Whelen" headstamp.
Pete Cardona is not telling where he gets the basic/who made it.
The shoulder on the 400 Whelen-Berry of 2013 is exactly the same as on the 400 Whelen-Petrov of 2003,
except my neck-1 diameter is .003" smaller on the 400 WB, to make a better shoulder.

Rob,
You shoot proof loads at deer.