Firstly I find it strange that I cannot post on Minkmans thread, Is Saeed up to something!!

To state the 416 can out penitrate the 404 is pure BS, I have tesed both many times and they are as close to equal as can be...

To quote the 416 Rigby as more popular than the 404 in early Africa is another mistake..The 404 was the honey of most of the game depts and still is in much of Tanzania, It was more widely accepted by the farmers and citizenery of early Africa because it was cheaper by a good deal, than the Rigby, who was used little and mostly by the English elite...

The Rigby was made famous by one PH (Selby) and one American novelist by the name of Ruarke who wrote of deeds daring by Selby...Much the same as dirty Harry made the 44 magnum famous...

The 404 and 416 are my choice of big bore calibers in a bolt rifle and there is little, if any, difference in them in the real world...what the 404 lacks (if any) in penitration it makes up for in cross section of the bullet. I base this on nemourous tests into several different media...Both with monolihic solids will shoot through a buffalo end to end and on ocassion they will make two holes.

I have shot a lot of buffalo with both calibers and cannot tell much difference, but I prefer the .404, it has been a better performer overall for me...

That said, there is precious little difference in any of the big bores until perhaps you get to .577 and I have never shot anything with a 577 or larger bore, so couldn't say...

So what? Buffalo are easy to kill.

The original 404 will probably kill most anything but falls short sometimes on big elephant, which is why I don't remember any elephant hunter ever using one (or a 450/400), but, hey, there is a HHK elephant PH that uses a 450/400. Maybe it was the only double he could afford!

You have to have velocity to get penetration.

Wanna fight?

Buff are easy to kill?? Note to self get eyes checked. I must have been hunting cocker spaniels all these years. Charlie

Mark Selby still uses a 450-400

Yeah, and Harry Manners used a .375 HH. But elephants caught up to him and his trackers several times.

Ray, too many unbelievers in this lott. The true unwashed have no clue as to true perfection of the Jeffery round. More than enough to do the job without the glitz and glamor or the excess recoil of other rounds. I guess all of the animals shot on game control hunts with the 404 count less than the opinion of so many that have done little!

Lb,


Screw'um!

Ray,

I told Saeed that the family dog was in heat. He recommended the internet canine birth control button to keep unwanted suiters away.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Mark Selby still uses a 450-400

You meant a .416 Rigby.......like father, like son

No, Mark still shoots a 450-400 that Robert Ruarke gave him..Its engraved from his Godfather, Robert Ruarke...

I just read the other thread and can't believe some of the crap posted there. One poster claimed the 'old black powder' loading was weak. Black Powder?

How about the 416 rigby got it's reputation because of heavy for bore bullets? The 404 are light for bore I guess.

Don't forget there were around 80 416 Rigby's made before 1980 as compared to many thousands of 404's. The Rigby was not a classic African Caliber.

When I joined the zimbabwe parks department .404's were still standard issue. They were in short supply and we had many .458's comming in, but all the old hands had a .404 and hung on to it until we ran out of ammo for them in the late '80's.

The vet department had a mixture of .404's and .425's

Incidently all the 1950's Kynock ammo I have chrono'ed for .404, .416, .425 all delivered their FMJ bullets at 2150-2175fps. In original factory loads the superiority of the .416 was in the steel jacket and bullet shape. In softs though I have chrono'ed .404 400grn softs at 2250fps and .416's at 2300fps

Pondoro Taylor recomended Brian Marsh replace his .375 with a .404 for buffalo culling - which he did. I have carried a .404 for many years as my main "back up" rifle and have owned 2. My ex department issue H&H and a cogswell & Harrison. Have never shot an animal with either though. When things have happened I have always had something else in my hands. Just the way the cookie crumbles.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
No, Mark still shoots a 450-400 that Robert Ruarke gave him..Its engraved from his Godfather, Robert Ruarke...

Not trying to argue but I know Mark quite well and he sold that double (Given to him by Ruark who claimed he bought it off Karamojo Bell) long ago. He uses a .416 rigby exclusively and has done for many years now.

I know Mark very well also, and you may be correct, I won't argue the point but I was not aware of him selling the gun...I know at one time he very much liked the rifle..

Okay, what are the conclusions here?

The .404 400 gr. bullets are light for bore. If the .404 is issued to any game dept. it is wonderful. Buffalo are wusses, and easy to kill. The nostaglic value of the .404 is its primary value. The old .404 loads were downloaded so much the bullets hardly exited the barrel. It is the ultimate backup rifle. The .404 is better than any other .416 caliber round! The .404 is just the latest fad? The .404 is just a .375 H&H on steroids?

Will,

You forgot to add that all the really good hunters, as well as really great guys and fantastic lovers, hunt with 404s!

Anemic weenies, with bad cases of penis envy, tend towards the .416.

What can I say. The truth hurts.

Will,
on the basis of your last few posts on these forums I can now safely conclude the following about you:
1- You have never shot a buffalo
2- Your favorite rifle is a 45-70
3- In your signature line you refer to an unspecified animal as "them" which based on item 2 above "them" must be a T-Rex.
4- Based on the above 3 items, you are nothing but a

Wasn't the 404 John Burger's ("Horned Death")rifle of choice.
Didn't he kill more Buffalo than anyone ever?

quote:

Originally posted by rcasto:
Wasn't the 404 John Burger's ("Horned Death")rifle of choice.
Didn't he kill more Buffalo than anyone ever?

What's your point?
Bell shot a sh*t load of ele's with a .275 rigby!

I know Will is just pulling our collective legs, no one could really believe there is any real diff. between any of the .42 bores, except for maybe the .416Wby. BTW Will, how can a cart. dev. in what, 1905, be a fad? The next thing you are going to tell me is the good ole 1911/.45acp is just a passing fad. You know, come to think of it, isn't the internet a passing fad?

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
Will,
on the basis of your last few posts on these forums I can now safely conclude the following about you:
1- You have never shot a buffalo
2- Your favorite rifle is a 45-70
3- In your signature line you refer to an unspecified animal as "them" which based on item 2 above "them" must be a T-Rex.
4- Based on the above 3 items, you are nothing but a

Mich,

Besides taking pot shots at various threads and various members, vaugely aluding to his great and meaningfull hunting experience, and constantly hinting to his superiority as a hunter and a firearms expert.

Will has never posted a sinlge f----ing thing on the ARL sight that actually says anything meaningfull or is insightfull or in anyway indicative of anything other than a small and insecure little man who's got something to prove.

Greg

Whew, nasty stuff.

I bow to those with more experience than I. Any suggestions who that might be?

quote:

posted Mar 25, 6:20 PM
Whew, nasty stuff.

I bow to those with more experience than I. Any suggestions who that might be?

-------------------------------
Bill Stewart

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Will, just out of curiosity, how can a 400 grain .423 be light for caliber when a 400 grain .416 is heavy for caliber?

Are we to think a 400 grain .4195 if perfect for caliber?

Looks like I have stirred things up now, eh?

Mickey, you are the one that facetiously mentioned that the 400 gr. 423 bullet was light for caliber. At least I assumed you were jesting.

I suppose this "attack" has resulted from my comment about buffalo being easy to kill. Well, they are. If you shoot a buff broadside through the lungs, right behind the front leg, they invaraibly run off for a few yards and either stop or stop and fall down.

It is only when a piss-poor shot has been made that buffalo go through a change in character. Then they are as tough and as difficult to kill as any animal around.

So if someone believes that my comments about buffalo are not "meaningful" or "insightful," then they can believe anything that they want. I suppose I could phrase that another way, but I'm trying to be nice here!

Will

I was repeating something someone said on another thread. I'm too lazy to go look up who.

I do agree though that Buffalo are easy to kill, most of the time.

I find it interesting that most hunter's go for a lung/heart/shoulder shot and then complain that they are hard to kill.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

I bow to those with more experience than I. Any suggestions who that might be?

Not sure, how about

Norbert
Bill Feldstein
Walter Eader
Niki Atcheson
that German bloke who has hunted Swainsons every year for 20 years (forgot his name)

quote:

I bow to those with more experience than I. Any suggestions who that might be?

Will,

That is exactley what I'm talking about. Instead of making these vauge allusions to your VAST expereience why don't you just lay it out on the line and tell us Will. How many buffalo have you killed? How many elephants? The reason you won't is that no matter how many you've killed you're still just a tourist hunter like most of us out here and there will be some other tourist hunters and definatley some pro who's killed more than you. B.F.D..

Your posts remind of one of those tatted up 19 year old dropouts who hang around a Jr. high school trying to impress all the other kids by beating up the the little boys and telling stories about how tough you are to the wanna be's.

How about using all that "experience" and giving some support and advice every once in awhile. Your digs get old.

Mickey,

As I explain in my upcoming book, full of meaningless and insightless hunting stories, of which I am sure you will want to purchase multiple copies of , the wives tale of only using solids on buffalo get many into trouble.

Not that solids will not work, but they are not nearly effective as a good soft nose bullet. A buff is shot with a good soft. It staggers around a bit and falls dead. A buff is shot with solid, doing less damage than a soft, and it starts to run off and now the rest of the solids in the magazine must be slung in the direction of the rapidly departing buff. Damn, see, those buff are so tough you need solids.

It is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Believe it or not. Your option!

Will

I will be more than happy to accept a free, autographed copy of your upcoming Best Seller. Even though it be filled with meaningless prattle from an inexperienced tourist hunter.

Any stories about hunting with a 404?

Greg,

You are right, I'm just a tourist-hunter like everyone else here. B.F.D. I'll try to tone it down in the future, but no promises!

quote:

I suppose this "attack" has resulted from my comment about buffalo being easy to kill. Well, they are. If you shoot a buff broadside through the lungs, right behind the front leg, they invaraibly run off for a few yards and either stop or stop and fall down.

I have been a little embarrassed to recount my four buff hunts because each of them died quickly after the first shot. No Sullivan style charge, no shooting up the country side, no major excitement other than the expectation for trouble.

At the end of the day, buff can be very easy to kill if you want them to die quickly by not pushing them, placing your shot, and by use a proper cartridge like a .416 Dakota with a 410gr Woodleigh Weldcore traveling at 2300 - 2400 fps.

I don’t hunt with a .404 Jeffery for the same reason I don’t shoot a flintlock. After all, who wants to shoot an antique?

This is a fun thread, I feel like I'm at a WWF wrestling match... Can someone pass the popcorn?

Again with the Dakota!

Also, from anecdotal evidence and my B.F.D. experiences, there is a quasi-distinct difference between the effectiveness of cartridges of about 4,300 ft-lb, like the .375 and the original .404, and the next step up to all the zillions of cartridges delivering about 5,100 ft-lb.

This is why I, personally, would never use a .375 to hunt elephant. You might as well be throwing the rifle at them in a charge!

At the minimum, I would want a Dakota.

quote:

I don’t hunt with a .404 Jeffery for the same reason I don’t shoot a flintlock. After all, who wants to shoot an antique?

Yeah Zero, the .404 is such an antique they reinvented it in the form of the various RUMS!

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Greg,

You are right, I'm just a tourist-hunter like everyone else here. B.F.D. I'll try to tone it down in the future, but no promises!

Will,

I guess then that your back to being just a Crochity Old Bastard.

Greg
A no B.F.D.T.H.

By the way I think I'm starting to agree with you on the solid bullet thing. I've had a couple of buff take a LONG time to die after being hit good with solids.

Greg,

I apologize beforehand but you have egged me, on so it is your own fault!

quote:

By the way I think I'm starting to agree with you on the solid bullet thing. I've had a couple of buff take a LONG time to die after being hit good with solids.

So now you admit my B.F.D. might be bigger tha many others B.F.D.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

Also, from anecdotal evidence and my B.F.D. experiences, there is a quasi-distinct difference between the effectiveness of cartridges of about 4,300 ft-lb, like the .375 and the original .404, and the next step up to all the zillions of cartridges delivering about 5,100 ft-lb.

That is a useful piece of information. Thank you for posting it.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

You are right, I'm just a tourist-hunter like everyone else here. B.F.D. I'll try to tone it down in the future, but no promises!

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

I apologize . . .

All right, you bastard! Who are you and what have you done with Bill Stewart?!

BTW, I am also a tourist hunter but have never shot one. Are tourists even easier to kill than buff?