I'm confused!!! I would like to build one but, the dim. are confusing. What type of action works best who makes the best"stuff". I have access to a olympic action I could order a m98 from legacy sports. I have heard that it is a 3" case or a 2.8 inch case the head dim. of a Rigby or standard Mag .532. Can someone help me out there. I think Gary Reeder has built a few. Do any of you guys have one? Thanks for all the help!!
Liled

Liled



While you are awaiting some of the 585 owners to chime in...here is the article written by Ross Seyfried....Mike



585 NYATI

BY ROSS SEYFRIED

There was a lot of dust, raging screams and flying brush caused by nothing less than a very cheeky young bull elephant. The sight was magnificent; an 11-foot-tall, 6-ton roaring fury flattening everything in his path. There was only one thing wrong with the picture - all of this "entertainment" was pointed right at my frail body. I was guiding an elderly gentleman who couldn't run, leaving only one option - to play out this little fellow's bluff. Odds were very good that his only intent was to scare me - a mission at which he was totally successful. I fired the right barrel of my Westley Richards .450 Nitro just over his head when he clossed the 30-yard line. If my bluff didn't stop him, the left barrel was going to have to come down about 3 feet. If it didn't work at 10 yards, someone was going to die. Forturately, the Cordite boom had the desired effect and the bull retreated into the thorn belt.

The little .450 was nice, but during the next few hours my instincts for self preservation longed for my .577 Nitro. However, the rarity and immense value of a .577-100-750 double rifle dictated that it not be risked to charging elephants, or worse yet, African governments, any longer. That night, in a grass hut in Zambia, I conceived an inexpensive, lightweight .577 Nitro Express. This rimless cartridge was to be used in conventional bolt actions and duplicate the British round that is the stopper of all stoppers. I named it after my all-time favorite thing to be seen behind a set of express sights, the Cape Buffalo. He is called Nyati (n ya' te) in most languages of southern Africa. The .585 designation would set it aside from all of the rimmed versions that referred to the bore (not groove) rather than true bullet diameter of all of the .577s. At the end of load development it could also make a claim to "most powerful sporting round" with energy well over 10,000 foot-pounds. While energy claims are useless, it was an interesting comparison.

It is important to understand the difference between this and other so-called supperpower cartridges. Things like the .460 Weatherby, .475 A&M and oddballs like the .495 B-Round make their power claim by adding velocity to a "normal" bullet. Some have greater theoretical energy than the old .577 but do not have its bullet weight and diameter. These whip a solid through a buffalo or elephant faster but do not have that big .585-inch diameter to disrupt tissue. When facing dangerous game, bore diameter combined with bullet weight works, energy tables might not.

The parent cartridge was the .577 3-inch Nitro Express. The rim would be turned to .505 Gibbs dimension, leaving the cartridge with a slightly rebated head. By removing most of the body taper a .045- inch 30-degree shoulder could be formed. Here the "experts" said it couldn't be done. Such arguments as "Not enough shoulder to headspace," "It won't fit in the action" and just plain "can't" were thrown in front of my security blanket. I rebelled at "can't" and put JGS to the task of blueprinting and later grinding a set of reamers. The only argument that gave me the slightest concern was the small shoulder for headspacing, but in reality it takes a major effort on the handle of a loading press to move that shoulder.Around the huge circumference, the actual area of the shoulder is quite large. Headspacing is not a problem.

With the reamer grinding under way, I needed an action and barrel. The now-defunct Matco company make me a .577 x .585-inch, one-turn-in-20-inch-twist barrel. Several other barrel makers are tooled to make the big tubes; Krieger, Obermeier and Williams, to name a few. My rifle began as a purely "workhorse" experiment so the barrel was left the full 1.4-inch diameter, 27 inches long.

The action choice was easy. I had an old BRNO 602 on hand. While designed for the .375 H&H, the action is huge, with big wide rails that would handle the .660-inch diameter cases easily. The action would take a 3-inch-length case, but cutting it to 2.8 inches created a bit more body taper per inch. The choice between a 2.8 and 3-inch case wasn't easy, but I settled on a 2.8-inch case with a .500-inch-neck. At this length its powder capacity was equal to the .577 Nitro 3-inch - 160 grains, more or less! In addition to the BRNO action the .585 would also fit into magnum Mausers, Enfields and other capable of taking the .505 Gibbs cartridge.

A 3-inch version of the cartridge would certainly work. Higher velocity could be obtained and the round looks more impressive. However, the 2.8-inch cartridge fits into the actions with less modification and has the advantage of the bullet base almost touching the powder with normal loads. This helps prevent the bullets from being driven into the case under recoil. I hate to be practical where cartridges are concerned, but the 2.8-inch delivers more horsepower than anyone can handle. There is no need for a bigger case, and the short one will fit in a standard Mauser action.

As work progressed with the .585, an experimenter/collector in California hit upon a brilliant idea. He owned an original .500 Schuler rifle, which used the big .500 Schuler (aka .500 Jeffery) round with rebated head in a standard Mauser action. The Schuler system utilizes an extended magazine that holds the cartridges in a straight line rather than staggered in the conventional Mauser manner. With this patent it is possible to hold three very large rounds in the magazine, plus one in the chamber. A spring clip in the right side of the magazine box controls the rounds and their feeding out of the magazine. The Schuler uses a very rebated (smaller than the case body) case head that is the same size as the .416 Rigby. Jim reasoned that if the .500 Schuler cartridge worked on a standard 98 Mauser action, the .585 with a .416 head might lend itself to the same system....and it did. Gunmaker Sterling Davenport produced a grand 11 1/4-pound, four-shot .585 Nyati on a standard Mauser action. Yes, I mean one that was originally an 8x57mm military rifle! I will add details later, but this was a real boon to big bores - readily available, inexpansive actions. Best of all it put this gigantic stopper in the price range of ordinary custom rifles. A .585, with laminated stock, can be had for just $1,800. Certainly not peanuts, but just a fraction of what I would have expected to pay. A vintage magnum Mauser commands something like $2,000....for the action alone!

With the arrival of a set of reamers and headspace gauges from JGS my rifle was ready to go bang. Its maiden voyage was an unglamorous one - a 27-inch "axle," screwed into the crude BRNOaction, all tied to a tire and tripped with a long string. My initial load was the same as I use in .577 Nitro; 140 grains of 4831 and a 750-grain bullet. The young cannon made a deep throaty roar, lifted part of my backstop bodily into the air and disappeared rearward at a great rate. The recoil broke the nylon cord that held it to the tire and speared the barreled action into the dirt some 6 feet away. Not only was this unglamorous, but ominous as well. When I retrieved the rifle, the bolt lifted with one finger and the case ejected out of the port. With an inward grin I could only think, "Tell me it can't work."

My initial loading and forming dies were a combination of handmade dies ones reamed with the rough and finish chambering reamers. They worked, but when gleaming new ones arrived from RCBS the job of forming and loading was easy. A single forming die sets the shoulder, trims to length and begins the body taper. Full- length sizing and seating dies complete the operation. If you have a supply of B.E.L.L. ".505 Gibbs" cases, you are set. (The B.E.L.L. .505s required lathe-turning to reduce the body to make them .505 Gibbs; they are actually rimless .577s.) If you start with .577 3- inch rimmed cases it is necessary to form the heads on a lathe. Even though B.E.L.L. is out of business there are some of its .577s floating around as well as some vintage Kynoch brass. The good news is that Bertram in Australia is tooled up for .577. Quite possibly by the time you read this Huntington will have the new Bertram cases in stock.

There are more kinds of .585-inch bullets now than at any time in history. Mold makers can duplicate the old lead bullets. Barnes offers its plain vanilla lead/copper tubing bullets in 650 or 750 grains. It also has its grand solids in the same weights. An outfit called Naval Ordnance makes some interesting .585-inch bullets with drawn jackets in a variety of shapes and weights. This is the place for experimenters, because Naval Ordnance will make about anything you want. Then, the traditionally shaped but ultra-modern technology of the Woodleigh bullets is available. The shape duplicates the original Kynoch bullet, but internally they are the best made. They come in 650 or 750 grains. The steel-jacketed solids are almost indestructible. Woodleigh makes its softnoses with big blue noses, soecial tapered jackets and bonded cores. While most don't realize it, the bigger bullets like the .577 are quite apt to rupture their jackets on heavy game. It takes exceptional .577s to perform perfectly. The Woodleighs do.

Armed with an almost unlimited choice of components, I glass- bedded the barreled action into an original BRNO stock and began to chronograph and develop loads. The loads with 4831 were very mild, actually a bit slow. This prompted a change to 4350. I was hoping to be able to duplicate the 750-grain bullet at 2,050 fps that 100 grains of Cordite delivered in the Nitro Express. A load of 130 grains of 4350 came very close and again with pressure that didn't even take the wrinkles out of the case. Another 5 grains of powder put it just beyond the great Nitro round. Here was enough success to warrant completing the rifle.

The first step would be to cut the barrel to length and give it a proper contour. Brown Precision duplicated the dimensions of the barrels on my double rifle, resulting in a very light, elegant- looking profile. With the 23-inch barrel I began load development in earnest.

Shortening the barrel 4 inches reduced the velocity of my initial loads about 80 to 100 fps. Because pressure signs were very low I felt at liberty to add more fuel to the engine. I settled on 140 grains of 4350 and a 750-grain bullet as a working load for my rifle. Its velocity was 2,175 fps, far beyond the old Nitro's speed, duplicating the velocity of the smaller-bore .450 to .475 rounds. While I did not have the luxury of a pressure gun, all pressures indicators pointed to low levels. The cases fell out of the chamber and head expansion was negligible.

To the end of determining a margin for error and satisfying my curiosity, I continued to

increase the charges until I either ran out of case capacity or began to see signs of maximum pressure. With a case full of 4350 and 750-grain bullets, velocities were over 2,400 fps. Changing to Hercules Reloader 15 powder I hurled the big 750s over the 2,500-fps mark with energy in excess of 10,000 foot-pounds and a Taylor Knock Out number of 158 (compared to K.O. of 86 for the .460 Weatherby and 150 for the .600 Nitro). My load development was done with the rifle held in a machine rest and fired by remote control, for safety and to avoid recoil punishment. I fired one round loaded with a 750-grain bullet at 2,500 fps from an 11 1/4 pound rifle offhand, from my shoulder. It was an unforgettable experience. In the fraction of a second when the rifle was in full recoil, I thought it had hurt me. There was the monumental feeling that the rifle had gotten all over me. I couldn't see and the whiplash felt like a giant was trying to pull my head off. The recoil sucked me out of my shooting glasses and clapped my earmuffs over my eyes, accounting for the blindness. After taking off the blinders and checking all body parts, I found I really wasn't damaged. But it's an experience I don't care to repeat.The recoil approached that of a 4 bore, but with much higher recoil velocity. This kind of horse-power would require a 16 to 20-pound rifle. This of course defeats the purpose of the project. The Nyati is supposed to be light, handy and manageable. With 750-grain bullets it will break both shoulders on the biggest elephant. Why tamper with success.

While working up loads for the .585 I discovered an extremely useful helper. My limit is about six rounds of .577s per day. I needed an assistant that would accurately fire the rifle and not make me take all of the recoil. The good fairy brought a Stinger Rest just in the nick of time. This is a fixture that bolts to the benchrest. It has a front fork that supports the fore-end and a rear leather pouch that holds the butt stock. Built within the system are a pair of immensely strong springs. The shooter holds the rifle in a conventional benchrest way and takes a small part of the recoil on his shoulder. The Stinger absorbs the rest. Using the .585 with 750s at 2,500 fps the felt recoil, is about like a .340 Weatherby. Without the rest the loads would be impossible for most humans to manage! I fired as many as 50 .585 rounds in one day without a hint of gun headache or sore shoulder. Without the rest such a session would have been out of the question. The Stinger also allows extreme precision. It makes holding the rifle precisely on target very, very easy. I actually shot some 4 to 6-inch groupswith the big .585 at 300 yards....using a very large aperture sight!

Before I departed my pursuit of horse-power I wanted to try one more "bigger and better." This is using 650-grain bullets at abnormally high velocity. Barnes Bullets made me some 650-grain truncated-cone solids out of the same material it uses in its Super Solids. This is the bullet shape that outperforms all others in our big handgun cartridges and is proven to be equally effective in large-bore rifles. Using the less dense brass material the 650- grain bullet is about the same length as the 750-grain jacketed lead bullets. I haven't tried it on game, but with the .585 flatnosed Barnes solids moving at 2,400 fps we may have giant- tromping potential that goes right off the scale. The bullets have full .585-inch diameter, with an almost 1/2-inch flat on the nose. This, with the same velocity and more than 1 1/2 times the bullet weight of a .416 Rigby. Reducing the bullet weight from 750 to 650 grains keeps the recoil at a tolerable level. The added velocity and the big, flat nose will have a tremendous "splash" effect as it goes through tissue.

Today the grand double rifle is virtually out of the question, but the light, handy .585 Nyati is not. By using roughly 40 percent of the black-powder weight of 4198, filling the case with Dacron fiber and adding a patched pure-lead bullet we have the equivalent to the old BP loads. Both NEI and LBT can supply bullet molds. The accuracy is right up there with almost any modern rifle load; 1 1/2-inch groups at 100 yards are common. The solid, pure lead bullet mushrooms perfectly and because of its gummy nature does not fly apart. If we are looking for a deer and bear load for the woods, it might take some long searching to find anything as effective. When we consider this potential, added to a rifle that can be loaded with a recipe that will flatten a charging elephant under the worst conditions, the versatility of the .585 Nyatu becomes quite impressive. The only change required is a taller front sight to bring the slower loads to the point of aim. If one were interested only in using the light 550 to 650-grain bullets at sub-2,000-fps velocity the rifle could be made at 9 to 10 pounds weight.

The construction of the actual rifles is relatively straightforward. This is one case where an auxiliary recoil lug on the barrel is absolutely necessary. My original test stock was torn to splinters. Now the stock of fancy English walnut stands up perfectly, but it is thoroughly glass-bedded with Brownells Steel Bed. Added stock strength comes from crossbolts in front of and behind the magazine box and a barrel lug that has a tie-down screw through the bottom of the forestock. My rifle with the light barrel contour (.800 inch at the muzzle) finished at 11 pounds. The stock was made to fit me, with a large butt area, generous comb and Elmer Keith's anti-recoil cheekpiece. Even with all of these refinements the recoil was a bit more than I enjoyed. I added 2 pounds with #12 lead shot and epoxy, pouring some under the barrel and some in the butt. The weight was added in a way that maintained the rifle's balance just in front of the front guard screw. The 13-pound rifle certainly recoils with the 750s at 2,175 fps, but it does not rattle one's soul. I can make a relatively quick second shot and it weighs exactly the same as my grand old Rigby double.

The Schuler patent rifle made up by Sterling Davenport is a masterpiece in its own way. This is plain and businesslike, but awesomely effective. As I said, it starts with a standard Mauser action. A special extended magazine box is made out of solid steel that attaches to the original bottom metal by means of a massive lug and a single screw. A special trough-shaped follower replaces the conventional one. The rails are reworked and widened to admit the fat round. The spring steel retainer is welded to the right side of the magazine box to control the rounds as they come up under the bolt.

Sterling used a heavier barrel contour, fully one inch at the muzzle to accommodate his special integral compensator. This has an expansion chamber (enlarged portion machined into the inside of the bore just behind the muzzle) and two large oval ports on either side of the front sight. Unlike the little sharp-cornered "ports" often cut into the rifling, the combination of enlarged expansion chamber and large oval ports is quite effective. This rifle, weighing 11 1/4 pounds, seems to behave as well as or better than my 13-pounder. The Davenport compensator also suffers none of the side effects associated with the stress risers and sharp corners being cut into the bore itself. This workmanlike rifle is stocked with a laminated wood stock that seems unimpressed by any degree of recoil and has a very pleasant appearance.

Sighting on rifles of this recoil level has its limitations. In my opinion a conventionally

mounted scope is out of the question.









LOADING DATA FOR .585 NYATI



BULLET POWDER CHARGE VELOCITY NOTES



750 Barnes IMR-4350 130.0 1,925 Light

140.0 2,170 Mild pressure

150.0 2,287 No remarks

160.0 2,487 Maximum



750 Woodleigh IMR-4350 140.0 2,196 Mild pressure



750 Barnes solid IMR-4350 140.0 2,210 Mild pressure



750 Barnes RL-15 120.0 2,070 Dup.577 fact.

130.0 2,235 No remarks

140.0 2,420 No remarks



750 Woodleigh RL-15 MAX. 2,525 10,625 ft-lbs



650 Barnes truncated-cone IMR-4350 160.0 2,402 416 Rigby vel.



545 patched lead* H-4198 72.0 1,641 **Dacron filler



650 patched lead* H-4198 73.0 1,660 **Dacron filler



NOTES: All loads used B.E.L.L. brass and Federal 215 primers (*used Federal 210 primers) Velocities 15 feet from muzzle over Oehler and PACT chronographs. ** 15 grains Dacron fiber over powder to fill air space in case.

i had thought of building one of these.. in my parameters, under 14# and no brake...

So i went and shot a friends 577 nitro... again...

and promptly reordered the barrel in 500 jeffery

jeffe

Someone posting as PC has one on a Brno 602. Try to find some of his posts in the Big bore section and email him .

Yes cr is right I have on on a 602 .375 H&H I had it made to hold 3 down and the length is 2.85" if I recall correctly. There is very little meat left on the bolt face although this has not caused concerns yet other than in my own mind My rifle has a 25" Tobler barrel 1" at the muzzle with 3" of break, I have a Corporal Trading reinforced Kevlar composite stock with three merc reducers, recoil is fine off the shoulder with 650 gr woodleigh's between 2400-2500 I have not mucked about much with 750's or heavier yet. I have a 2.5x compact leupold mounted on it in Talley's it does put game down with authority to say the least

Over the bench I can fire around niine shots but I pay the price with a headache later.

So the brass I would buy would be 2.8" with a rigby head size. Is that correct? It still sounds a little un-uniform.
I might just have dave make up another Wells.

Jeffe, when I get that 458 barrel back if you still want it will work out a deal.

liled

I have a 585 nyati on a win model 70 stainless, and my gunsmith is pregnant with another one on a BBK-02 action.

Important info:

rim: 0.640"
case length: 2.800 (Bertram brass is unformed, untrimmed, so you have to trim it to length in a file trim die - start with a hacksaw, then use a file and deburring tool).

Recoil: not too bad in a 13 pound rifle, even without a brake. Just get a good pad. A couple of mercury recoil reducers in the stock make it pretty good to shoot as the mercury takes the edge off the recoil. I can shoot mine from the bench with a scope without any problem.

Notes: Bertram brass is soft, so I would stay away from the high pressure 2500 fps loads. If you stay under 2300 fps, the recoil is just fine. Down at 2050 fps (577 nitro express velocities), it's almost a pussycat.

Horneber brass in this caliber is excellent, but it's not easy to get.
I have shot a cow elephant and a buffalo with this caliber with great satisfaction. Both were heart/lung shots using solids and neither went further than 25 yards.

My recoil limit in a day is 14 rounds of 585 at 2250 fps, then I start getting a headache.

For actions you have a lot of options. The most important factor is to choose the right gunsmith. I strongly suggest using a smith who has built these successfully before, and then let him specify the components.

Good luck!

500,

at one time or another I intend to build a second .585 but this time in full Africa clobber, I would like an action with a bigger bolt face as well.

PC,
hey pal!!! They drop yet? HEH... take the brake of, I mean to say?

Liled, the enfield p17 with a p14 bolt is the cheapest way to get there from here, if you have to buy another action.

I am telling you, though, the 577 nitro, in the case 14.5#, 750gr bullets at 2168, is just too much for me... I guess I am a whimp!!!

Let's talk about the barrel..
jeffe

Liled
My Bauska BBK02 has the following dimensions
Bolt .722, lip/rim left on bolt face for Gibbs .045"
Mag length 3.85"

Liled, as 500gns said it is easier to stick to original gibbs rim. The rigby rim will feed with competent smithing as mine is so, but I got the smith to lathe turn the cases for me.



Last, getting the original 2.8" version to match CH dies is the best way to go.Mine is almost 3.1" and was a bit of a pain in the ass to get up and running.



One thing is I think it looks sexier than the stumpy 2.8" nyati, to me anyway.



This photo is a bit rough-



http://www.reloadersnest.com/frontpage.asp?CaliberID=302





Karl.

I have a enfield 1917 so I could start from there. What gunsmith? I know some want a kings ransom,"just because it's a large caliber" Jeffe put me on a great guy with the Wells. The problem my brother got the itich for a big boomer and I offered the Wells, well he took it. I want to stay parts plus $1000. The Wells ser me back about $1350+ action.
I've shot Mike Davison 505 gibbs. It is about 10.5 and 1 merc in the stock, I shot it. It was stout but managable. I will expect to load this one in the 2050 range and also cast bullets. So I will not be in the upper range.
I would like to check into a "coil check stock" aka "a-square hanable" for it. It does'nt have to be pretty just a play-thing.Thanks for all the comments!! Ya'll have been an awsome help!

I guess I need to save awhile. I can buy the barrel form pacnor for around $500 cut and chambered.Express sights are another $350. I can look for a different action. I have a 1917 in a 35 whelen right now. I also have a CZ550 Safari in the safe. I have a good buddy that is a very comp. gunsmith, but I want it done right. I was expecting to spend $1000 on gunsmithing. I should have made that more clear. I still have a few student loans to pay. That seems to come first, and I just got married in July. So it sound like it might be another year or two!!!
liled

Know that it is not controlled-feed and claw-extractor...

But has anyone ever built a 585 Nyati on a Weatherby Mark V action -- maybe one that was originally a 460 Wby ?

Don't know anything about gunsmithing, so have no basis to know whether it is even possible.

But the action size might be large enough. The 460 version already feeds straight-line. There is an increased capacity magazine available from the factory. McMillan makes an oversize stock for it. And it is available left-hand.

Haven't had any problems with the 500 A-Square that was built on a Weatherby.

Hammer

In a different thread, someone suggested a Rem 30 Express also. Does this have the extra metal opposite from the extractor also? Could all of the cock on open parts from a 30 express action fit into a P-14 bolt body? Just looking for info, my project plate is full at the moment. I did a 30-378 on a regular 1917. How much difference would there be to do a large bore instead? I built the mag box and opened the bolt face and action to get it to feed. It would hold 3+1 without the sway belly stock.

500,

what your saying about dropping the bolt is what I worry about. But that may or may not ever happen.

I will be interested to hear how your oly arms actioned .585 turns out. Ideally one day I would love to do it on the granite arms action. I would only go for 2200 fps with the 750 gr woodleigh and would keep the thing heaps lighter than my current .585.