The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores Water Weight case capacity FYI...Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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BMG, Thanks. I have a great deal more case capacity data if anyone is interested here it is: Rounded to the nearest whole number, 700 NE 272 gr 600 NE 214 gr 585 Nyati 179 gr 585 Nyati Sh.139 gr (2.25" case overall length) 577 NE 186 gr 500 NE 153 gr (3 1/4" version) 500 NE 140 gr (3" version) 500 A2 139 gr 495 A2 132 gr 495 A2 Short 111 gr (2.25" case overall length) 500 Jeffery 148 gr 505 Gibbs 171 gr 505 Gibbs Sh.154 gr (2.85" version) 475 No2 160 gr 470 NE 142 gr 470 Capstick 110 gr 500/465 NE 135 gr 460 WM 133 gr 458 Win Mag 93 gr 458 Lott 104 gr 45-70 75 gr 45-90 85 gr 45-100 93 gr 45-110 101 gr 45-120 118 gr 450 NE No2 158 gr 450 NE 129 gr (3 1/4" version) 11.2X72 107 gr 425 Express 91 gr 404 Jeffery 115 gr 416 Rem Mag 98 gr 416 Rigby 127 gr 416 WM 130 gr 416 Taylor 88 gr 450/400 NE 115 gr (3 1/4" version) 450/400 NE 112 gr (3" version) 405 Win 75 gr 378 WM 127 gr 375 WM 100 gr 375 H&H 91 gr 376 Steyr 72 gr 9.3X74R 77 gr 9.3X64 Bren. 79 gr 9.3X62 Maus. 69 gr 8X68 84 gr 300 WM 94 gr 300 Win Mag 87 gr 300 H&H 83 gr 30-06 64 gr 308 52 gr 30 WCF 41 gr [ 11-23-2002, 02:52: Message edited by: 500 AHR ] | |||
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Thanks BMG for the info. I was wondering how did you measure the water capacity. When I do a measurement, I usually stick a spent primer into the case and then overflow the water and then carefully run my finger across the case mouth so the water is leveled at the case mouth. Without running a finger across the case mouth, it will end up having a larger case capacity. Thanks! | |||
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I'm wondering what difference would be seen if you added a smidgeon of dish soap to the water, to break the surface tension and let it level out at the case neck. I've wondered this before, maybe sometime I'll be un-lazy enough to try it (my guess is it would make little difference). Todd | |||
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Mingo, I cannot speak for BMG, but I use the same method you described. | |||
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500AHR/TEG/SRS/ToddE thanks for being this to my attention, as I am very concerned that I and thousands of quickload users might be using spurious data. some of these capacities are close-enough to identical, so please help me understand before people get hurt. Please post your source/method for meauring case capacity. I have no doubt that mosts of your facts are correct, but I just wanted to point out that there might be some difference in measurment. most of these "jive" with quickload/other posted data but.... (filled to overflowing) the 376 steyr is 82 grains, (quickload sent us all a warning updating us on this) the jefferies(165) and gibbs(181) are larger than you posted, just to check the 4 that caught my eye. I 30-06 68. jeffe (there, a nice post to 8710) [ 11-25-2002, 00:30: Message edited by: jeffeosso ] | |||
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Jeffeosso, The truth is the case capacity varies from lot to lot and manufacturer to manufacturer. For instance. The Winchester 30-06 brass I currently have laying around measures 65.6 gr. 416 Rigby 127.6 gr. Ecetera Ecetera. The brass was measured with water and a digital scale. For your information I have never seen a 505 Gibbs with more than 175 gr of water capacity and that was a fired unsized case! Where did you get the Gibbs capacity from? The Jeffery capacity in the above list is a measured Bertram case. I am sorry, but there is no way a 376 Steyr will hold 82 grains of water! It is just too small! It is essentially a shortened 9.3X64 Brenneke, which has a 79gr capacity. How can the 376 Steyr be bigger? Another way to look at it. It is a 338 Winchester magnum shortened about .4". The 338 Wnchester magnum as I recall has a capcity around 83 gr! I suggest you check you records and it they say that CHECK YOU SCALE'S CALIBRATION! The method is to fill the case full of water and then "square off" the top. Pour the contents of the case into a digital scale and there you have it. I do not own Quickload. What is your impression of this software? I have been kicking around the idea of buying it, but there have been many reports that it isn't too aweful accurate. Is Quickloads case capacity database close to matching mine. See, mine is not virtual, but REAL WORLD. [ 11-25-2002, 02:05: Message edited by: 500 AHR ] | |||
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quote:[q]ATTENTION QuickLoad users! Please make sure the "case capacity to overflow" for the .376 STEYR cartridge is: 82 grains of water... [/q] http://search.yahoo.com/bin/search?p=376+steyr+case+capacity is the link, look at line 3. NECO has changed their website, and my quickload calls it, this second, 80 grains.. with most recent updates. [ 11-25-2002, 02:49: Message edited by: jeffeosso ] | |||
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Jeffeosso, The 9.3X64 Brenneke doesn't have a case capacity of 88 grains of water! I can assure you of that! Don't you own a 376 Steyr? If you do, why not measure a case? You are correct about the preferred measurement method. Actually it is: Weigh empty case Fill case with water and weigh it again Subtract these two numbers and you have the capacity. I find little difference in my method and this one, and I have used both (and both methods are illustrated in the list as it was compiled over many many years). The information was posted as an FYI. As I said there is ALWAYS a difference in case capacities between lots of the same manufacturer (and even within lots) and between different manufacturers. With the smaller cases ( say 460 Weatherby and down) this variation is relatively small, say around +/- 1 grain or less. With the big cases it may go up to +/- 2 grains or less. I wasn't going to post anything, but decided these capacity questions come up often enough that I would sit myself down and type in all this information. I guess, sometime it is just better to keep one's mouth shut! Warning Jeffeosso, I have loaded for the 376 Steyr, as a good friend has one on a Yugo M48. I know my numbers are accurate. IF you actually own and reload for a 376 Steyr, as you say you do, I would not have expected your attacks. [ 11-25-2002, 03:06: Message edited by: 500 AHR ] | |||
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quote:Dear Various handles follow the link I provided, and then you'll see what I am saying. If you won't follow up on the data, then please don't bother answering me. 1: This is not an attack, but a questioning your results vs another. I found your results to be at more than 1-2% off, and questioned. Just asking, as my data source says another way. This is a standard source for examining data from an unreliable source. 2: I own and reload and chrono 376, amoung others http://www.serveroptions.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=16;t=001943;p=1 3: "why don't i measure" okay, i did.. following the method YO ascribed to, of filling to the neck "squaring it off" and weighing the diff from dry to wet. BTW, i also carefully wiped off all moisture from the outside of the case and did 5.. ~81.1gr h2o and i'll go by saami on a standard cart. BTW, i check my scale every time i use it, with reference weights, thanks for suggesting that. 4: okay.. you know everything, and are above question.. of course the whole world is wrong, and the 9,3x64 doesn't hold 88 grains.. yeah, that's right.. Or, it could be that you don't know how large a 9,3 actually is. it's case head is ~.496", something like the same as a belted mag right above the belt. Todd, I asked you an honest question, gave you my facts, with public reference data. I asked you how you did it.. great.. but I am not "attacking" you (well, mebbe a little in item #4, but that's "in good fun", right? you said "in good fun" was okay, remember?) But, I am fairly certain you case capacitie's are off from mine, for whatever reason.. and if you are using the method you desribed, of pouring the water off, I can see why you would underreport some, and that error would increase with case capacity. Since the error is not consistant from small cases to large cases, in terms of percentages. oh, just for a gig.. let's answer your "IF you own..." with, yet again, asking you for pictures of your herd of rifles. jeffe [ 11-27-2002, 20:39: Message edited by: jeffeosso ] | |||
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Jeffeosso, I am confused as to your posted information, which has a public credible source? Please explain were the Jeffery and Gibbs data came from. I own, or have owned, both of these rifles and measured case volumes. Your numbers are very high. With the Gibbs it is possible to get to 181 grains (Berdan primed case), but the Jeffery at 165 grains, is in reality, a physical impossibility. Also, if you would be so kind as to explain the follwing statement you made to me in a manner a simpleton like myself can understand it would be greatly appreciated: quote:Thanks | |||
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| <BMG> |
As to how I measured the Case Capacity: I used FIREFORMED cases that have NOT been resized (like I stated in my first post). I then weighed the cases empty (on an electric scale) and recorded the weight. Then I filled the cases with water, wiped off the excess and made sure the water line was LEVEL with the case mouth and weighed it. Using subtraction ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif){kind=icon} I took away the water filled case wt from the case weight and got the water weight capacity.Different methods of manufacturing (such as drawn vs turned brass) can have a HUGE difference as well as Remington brass vs Winchester brass and lot vs lot. Also, the fireformed capacity is greater vs the fireformed then resized capacity vs unfired brass. This is why I specifically stated fireformed brass and Mfgr stamp. I also weighed some other cases I had on the bench using the same method: *.45-70 Remington brass* Case weight: 195gr Capacity: 77.7gr *.30-06 Win brass* Case weight: 191.5gr Capacity: 71.1gr I originally posted this message on the board as an FYI, however it has turned into an informative discussion (except the fact that 500 AHR Member# 8710 has chimed in - Disregard anything he/it says or at least tripple check it somewhere else). This discussion proses a few questions: 1) What is the 'official' method for measuring case capacity? Fireformed? Fireformed then resized? New brass? 2) Is any brass Mfgr the benchmark? 3) What is the 'accepted' % of variation between cases? (Military brass is much thicker than Rem brass as an example) | ||
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AHR (that stand for another handle required?) re-read my posts, the data is evident. again, your measured cases are not statistically significant, where saami (amoung others) is a defined standard. Next, you'll start to cloud the issue with noise, but not answer any question pointed to you Jeffe ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} [ 11-25-2002, 21:35: Message edited by: jeffeosso ] | |||
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for what it's worth (not too much) I measured 5 376 steyr cases.... average just under 81.1 grains of water, using AHR's method... yeah, it can't hold it NOT jeffe | |||
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CARTRIDGE CAPACITY IN GRAINS OF WATER HELD .50 BMG 270 600 Nitro 225.0 577 T.Rex. (German Cases)225.4 577 T.Rex. (A-Squares Cases)212.3 585 Nyati (Bertram Case) Fired 187.3 - 184 Unfired 505 Gibbs 180.0 500 Jeffrey 160.0 500 AHR 156.2 510 JAB 150 510 Wells 147 500 A-Square (460 Wea.case)144.0 460 Wby. 140.0 378 Wby. 137.0 | |||
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510 JAB ... 150 grains of water, yep, that's what I get, honest injun! This is from 460 Weatherby brass necked up and fireformed. Thanks for preserving this data for posterity, Nick, first posted long ago when this forum was not infested with POSeurs, when the big bores were rifles, not cyberpunks. ![[Roll Eyes]](images/icons/rolleyes.gif){kind=icon} 505 Gibbs ... 180 grains H2O 500 Jeffery ... 160 grains 510 JAB ... 150 grains Ballpark figures are good enough. It is silly to split hairs and grains, as lot-to-lot variation in brass does indeed occur. For example, the 500 A2 is actually a slightly bigger case than the 510 Wells, in external dimensions, so should have slightly greater internal volume if made from the same 460 Weatherby brass. I like those round figures. [ 11-26-2002, 09:20: Message edited by: DaggaRon ] | |||
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Just once I'd like to see Todd E/TEG/500 Whatever, give credit to the source for which he REALLY lifts all his great facts. But then why should I be dumb enough to expect him to give credit to anyone when he and his ass buddy Axel have no qualms about lifting other people's rifle photos and claiming they are theirs. Definately bottom feeders!  | |||
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Pecos45, That is a good point. Puffing himself up and expecting us to accept his lifted list without attributing it to a source, just sort of assuming us to imagine he measured them all himself, etc. Another fine trick is to demand photographic proof of this and that yet he cannot post even one photo of himself or anything believable that he has produced or owned, only plagiarizes, he does. The POSeur really debases this site. Yep, must be a PETA/Green Peace/Lesbian Sea Kayaker Sorrority sister, an infiltrator bent on sabotage of the greatest site on the web. Any place the POSeur posts rapidly becomes a big bore. | |||
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thanks, gentlemen, I have found many of the above posts to be extrememly telling. You have done the world a great service. Thanks, again! | |||
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so, is this sarcasm or a retraction? quote:7/5/02-- right after he created his new ID, then called srs. Interesting... this is a ToadE handle responding to an attack on ToddE, when it was posting as SRS. another perfect example of specious arguementation, that if unanswered, he'll act as if it's fact... this was when I was doing a search on it's "confession" this LOOKED like a newbie engineer, trying to support someone that looked like fact. quote: | |||
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Jeffeosso, You can always just drop the childish behavior. I have not attacked anyone recently, and it is my intention to remain "nice". My previous post was to meant to simply state the obvious. That being that finally TRUTH was shown on this thread. You will notice that others posted their case capacity information to contradict mine. Only one group is correct. I know which is right and which is wrong. I now have confirmation of long held beliefs I have had about some of those who post here. To others who know the truth about these case capacities, the poseur(s) has/have been revealed. I am amazed by your 81 gr of H2O 376 Steyr cases. That is 8.6 grains more than I was able to fit into my friend's Hornady brass. That is some variation. Do you know the lot number on your brass? [ 11-27-2002, 04:16: Message edited by: 500 AHR ] | |||
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quote:I started with a nice response, and you, rather than thinking "opps, i might remeasure" attacked me. I am tired of your BS, and I will simply refute you with fact. I LOVED how you jumped up and down that there's no way it can hold... yet, refused to follow one link to yahoo to see it, in print, and then intimate that I don't have the gun that I have already posted pics of. dude, your options are simple 1: shut up 2: post pictures 3: fess up, site your souces, and let's move on Jeffe [ 11-27-2002, 20:16: Message edited by: jeffeosso ] | |||
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Jeffeosso, If I post pictures, which will prove beyond a doubt that I am not a poseur wannabe sack of shit, what will all of those who have posted contradictory "proof" do? Seriously, these so-called experts who say that a 500 A2 or 500 Jeffery can hold 10% - 15% more water than it really can, who will be right and who will be wrong? Will that mean that I am right and they are the Poseur wannabes, or will this just prove that we are both right? Think about it for a second. If I do as you suggest, will I have proven that MANY here are lying poseur wannabes. Remember the old saying, "Be Careful What You Wish For". I now exactly how much water my current batch of 300 Win Mag cases will hold (90 grains). This is Remington brass. Also, when I said in an early post the 30-06 brass was Winchester, I mispoke, it is actually Remington I noticed that last night. The chart is reference only and is old. I have noticed that brass volume changes about 1% to 2% between lots and up to 5% between various manufacturers. So I agree with you there for the most part. Hornady's help line is, how shall I put it, interesting. I have spoken to them about 405 Winchester brass twice now. Both times they told me loose brass is readily avaiable. WRONG and answer. I have to purchase loaded ammo and shoot it to get the loose brass. Still cheaper than buying Bertram, however. | |||
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do it, or stfu guess you won't be calling H to find out, then, either? btw, I'll be letting you know in a week or so how much unfired jeffe-ry does hold jeffe [ 11-27-2002, 21:11: Message edited by: jeffeosso ] | |||
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quote:The only thing ever revealed by ANY of your posts is your stupidity and capacity for lying. [ 11-30-2002, 09:22: Message edited by: Pecos45 ] | |||
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quote:I was wondering this too, Jeffe. And would you happen to know where the brass used to make your case was smelted? The name and address of the truck that delivered it to the warehouse? Or are you afraid to reveal this information. Henceforth I will always end my posts with a STUPID question like Todd E. It makes me feel smart when I do this. [ 11-27-2002, 21:33: Message edited by: Pecos45 ] | |||
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BMG- The water capacity of the .600 RGB Improved is 351 grs. FYI.-Rob | |||
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quote:Rob - Before 500 AHA asks you, would you happen to know the lot number of your brass? And the serial numbers of each case? And were there any scratches on the brass or was it pretty well polished? | |||
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Before I go and leave you psychos forever. Would any one be interested in the CORRECT list of case capacities? The one above is for the most part correct, but has a few cartridges erroneosly typed in to test the so-called BIG BORE rifle gurus of this site. Funny NONE OF THESE EXPERTS knew the correct (or even close to the correct) answers! The Gibbs and the Jeffery are correct in the above list. Oh yes, the 500 A Square magnum is correct above too. Jeffeosso, since I am feeling all warm inside, I will give you some credit. You knew that the 376 Steyr was incorrect. However, YOU were still wrong. THE CORRECT CASE CAPACITY FOR THE 376 STEYR IS 76-77 GRAINS! There are few others that are incorrect. Actually these are all big bores if I remember correctly and some are double rimmed rounds. Funny the resident double rifle gurus did not pick up on the erroneous 450/400 NE capacities or the others. Hint the 500/465 has more case capacity than a 470 NE! If anyone want the correct list send me a PM and I will supply it to you that way. This will be my last public post. I have promised to stop inciting the resident trolls (Pecos, RAB, Etc) so to that end, I will go. Frankly it is getting too childish here with the posts like: 1.) "I wish you were dead" 2.) "you must have small penis because all your posts are lies" 3.) "you are a pretender because, well because, you know more than I do" 4.) "I have a friend who will destroy your computer though it's back door" 5.) "I will find you and beat you up" 6.) etc, etc. Just like middle school. Pecos, Dont worry, I will not be back under a new name. I WILL LET YOU DO THAT FOR ME! Ron Berry, As my last handle I adopted your nickname for me, IN YOUR HONOR, you posing POS. You flunked the case capacity test BIG TIME! | |||
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quote:Todd, I'll be glad to send you a couple fired cases for you to measure for yourself, and I'll even pay postage both ways. Heck, I'll even send to a PO Box. BTW, the "magic number' for hornady is "unknown" and their lab is using the to the shoulder method. They say "mid 70s... at the shoulder, should be low 80s for overfull" direct quote It would be a nice service if you would update your capacity post, or delete it, in the name of public safety. for any one interested quote:http://search.yahoo.com/bin/search?p=376+steyr+case+capacity is the link, look at line 3. NECO has changed their website, and my quickload calls it, this second, 80 grains.. with most recent updates. <shrug> jeffe [ 11-30-2002, 03:47: Message edited by: jeffeosso ] | |||
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I got curious so I went out to the bench and did my own test on a couple of cases. Here is what I got. I weighed the empty, clean brass (5 rounds ea) filled them with non-flouride well water and weighed the water. .577 3" BB 399grns water 200.4 avg Bell 388grns water 206 avg .470 Wolf 354grns water 144 Kyn. 315grns water 152 .465 Bell 308grns water 146 Kyn 303grns water 149 I am not an expert on this and really don't even know why it is important, if it is. | |||
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quote:POSeur - No. Nobody would be interested in anything you have to say. So why don't you just shove your CORRECT LIST up your lying ass. [ 11-30-2002, 09:07: Message edited by: Pecos45 ] | |||
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Mickey - Like you, I got curious about this water weight silliness and did some tests. WW - 45ACP = 34.2grs REM - 45ACP = 34.0grs FED - 45ACP = 34.1grs This sounded a little on the high side to me but then I realized water is heavier in Texas. | |||
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quote:The only thing ever revealed by ANY of your posts is your stupidity and capacity for lying. [ 11-30-2002, 09:21: Message edited by: Pecos45 ] | |||
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quote:I don't know. We have a lot of iron in our water. The fact that I live at almost sea level will make the cases heavier because of the greater force of gravity. Unless of course, cases, like everything else, are bigger in Texas. ![[Razz]](images/icons/tongue.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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Uh, did the POSeur think that he was running some sort of test? ![[Confused]](images/icons/confused.gif){kind=icon} What was the POSeur testing anyway, besides our patience? The POSeur is awfully self-centered and grandiose, eh? If his lithium isn't working so hot, he might want to ask his shrink to try him on Depakote next. | |||
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