Heh, need ideas on a starting place for the .416 Taylor. Have read that RL-15 works well. I need to push a 400 gr. solid around 2,350 for Buffalo. Any experience out there with this cartridge?

I shot a ton of 416 Taylor in a custom 19" barrel Winchester. What barrel length are you using?

Dwright

It's been awhile since I played with 416 Taylor, but I had a 22 inch gun back in the day, using 73gr RL15 was giving me from 2260 to 2290 depending on the 400 gr bullet. I think RIP had some loads, maybe a little higher with RL 15 too, as I recall. If you are running a 24 inch tube you should be good to go with 73 or 74 grs to get close to 2350. Also look at IMR 4064, had good luck with that too according to my data.

Honestly, I would take a look at the 350 Barnes for the solid, should be easy to exceed 2350.

Michael

Thanks guys, it's a Win. 70 custom with a 22" tube.
Heh Michael, I'd try the 350 gr. but it's not my rifle I'm loading for. The 400s are my marching orders. I've got some 4064 as well, I will try. I'm to work up the most accurate load I can get from this rifle, with top velocities.
OK, 4064 and RL-15. . . . . I'm goin in. . . .

You will have to think in terms of a Woodleigh or Hornady for a solid. The monometal bullets at that weight take up too much room.

As my esteemed colleagues have noted above, a drop tube is a great idea.

Start at 69 grains of RL-15, three rounds each.

TAKE YOU TIME.

Increase one grain at a time. I usually stop at 72 grains. Do not fret over fifty fps.

If you form cases out of Winchester brass, you can get an extra grain or even two of powder in. I use Jamison cases. Those, and cases formed from Remington or Hornady brass all have about the same capacity.

Michael 458 has some good advice about 350 grain bullets. A 350 grain "super-bullet" will get any job done without worrying about getting ten pounds of fertilizer in a five pound sack.

If you look back at prior posts, my older brother RIP has led some spirited discussions on this very topic. My advice is generally more conservative, but the ultimate decisions are up to you. Enjoy.

LD

I have been running 71.0 of RL-15 over a 400 gr Triple Shock.

Somewhere around here inmy notes I have a good 4064 load as well.

I liked 70gr of IMR 4320 in my shorter tubed gun.

Uncle!
Follow Bro' Darts advice.

With the stubby 400-grain Woodleighs and old-style Hornady softs, I have been known to use:
75 grains of RL-15
RP .458WM brass (identical capacity as QualCart .416 Taylor brass)
F-215 primer
fired in my 26" Shilen 1:14" stainless barrel
gave 2418 fps MV average. Accurate, max load.

Shorten the barrel to 24" and it will give about 2370 fps, guesstimated, by 24 fps/inch.

See the A-Square manual, for pressure tested data on 75 grains of RL-15, similar components.
Good safe load.

A-Square:

.416 Taylor 24" barrel of 1:10" twist,
75.0 grains RL-15
400gr Dead Tough RNSP
A-square brass
CCI-250 primer
COL of 3.340"
MV average of 2394 fps,
SD = 4fps
Pressure = 48,800 CUP where max allowed was 53,000 CUP (equivalent to 63,800 Pieso PSI),
well below max pressure.

Yep, you may need a drop tube.
Yep, you will need smaller charges for monometals of same weight.
Yep, 350-grainers are excellent idea in .416 Taylor,
especially for an FN solid.
Or 370-grain North Fork,
or 380-grain GSC.
Cat's meow.

Thanks all. You guys are great!

Gives me a good starting point. I will look at my A-Square data. I'll use the drop tube as well.

I think you guys are right on with the lighter bullets.
I have free reign on all available bullets for this project, so, will make that easy enough.
I greatly appreciate all input.

They are wrong about light bullets. You want the heaviest.

A 400 gr. bullet and about 74 gr. RL-15 gets you close to 2400 fps in a 22" barrel.

400-grain lead core stubby. Right Will?
Good advice from Will for load on those.

But there is more than one way to skin a cat:
Like with the lighter monometals and solid shank NF types, solids and softs weighing
330, 350, 370, 380-grains.

It does seem everybody likes RL-15, at 69 to 75 grains, depending on just which 400-grain or lighter bullet is used.

"The World According to Will" Right!

Anyway, it was way back from 2001-2003 when I was playing with 416 Taylor. RL 15 was excellent, IMR 4064 made a good showing, IMR 4320 gave some up and down numbers in my rifle??? So I dropped it. All were 400s at the time, Hornady, WOodleigh, and played with the Barnes RN solids. I am not even so sure that there were many 350 gr class bullets on the market then for 416?? I did not use any if there were.

Today, for that capacity case I would look real hard at the 350-380s, and not much more. If I had to have a 400 gr bullet, 2250 fps would be more than enough for any mission asked of it.

My 416 B&M which is basically the same case capacity in a shorter smaller rifle, was built around 350 gr bullets period. 400s at 2250-2300 just a bonus, 350-370s will handle anything you ask of a 416. In fact one of the greatest expanding available bullets is the 340 Woodleigh which I used in a medium capacity with excellent results. Using a 350 Barnes TSX and a 350 Barnes Banded pretty much takes care of things you need a 416 for, especially a small capacity or medium capacity cartridge like the 416 Taylor. Also considering most standard barrels in 416 are 1:14 twist rates, and can be a stability issue during terminal penetration with heavier 400 gr bullets! My 416s with 1:14 twist have a difficult time stabilizing 400s at lower velocities, all the more reason to drop to 350-380 for solids, with proper size meplats of course!

Michael

Hmmm, I don't know Michael. After all, with your very limited bullet testing and actual hunting experience N' all.

Ya, I's sure you pretty well have it figured out. I just have to convince the owner. I do have some 350s in TSX and Woodleighs. I'll load a few up for range testing and see how they shoot. If I can make them do nice tight little groups, it may make him change his mind.
Thanks!

Dennis

What is the objective? What is he going to hunt?

M

Buffalo. . . . African Buffalo. . . .

Well I stand with the 350s in that case capacity. I stand with the 350 TSX (EXCELLENT BULLET) and backed with the 350 Barnes Banded.

Now if a fellow absolutely had to have 400s on that case I would do either a 400 Swift A or the 400 Woodleigh. The 400 Woodleigh in 416 is excellent, it's not as soft as the 458 Woodleighs, and would hold up as well as a Swift! The solid is the issue, 400 Barnes banded is long for case capacity, but it will work, and for buffalo it will be fine. I would re-target my muzzle velocity however, I would shoot for 2250-maybe 2300 if you get there easy. I could live with that 400 gr combo. At 50 they should shoot close enough, inch or so. There is no buffalo on the planet that can bounce 400 gr 416s off of him at 2250 fps. Another 100 fps won't make or break it.

I shot one with the 416 B&M with a 350 Swift and 350 Barnes Banded, zero issues. In fact the 350 Swift did an excellent job, today I would use the 350 TSX however for a tiny bit more penetration. Both were running at 2450. Dead buffalo was the end result.

M

If I ever shoot another buffalo with a 416 B&M (which will be the only 416 I would ever use again) I would shoot him with our super duper 330 Brass HP Non Cons! In the little 18 inch gun can run those at 2470 I think, I know in 20 inches they are approaching 2550 fps, and we know what the non cons do!

Michael

The more A2 loads I test, the more skeptical I get.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Uncle!
Follow Bro' Darts advice.

With the stubby 400-grain Woodleighs and old-style Hornady softs, I have been known to use:
75 grains of RL-15
RP .458WM brass (identical capacity as QualCart .416 Taylor brass)
F-215 primer
fired in my 26" Shilen 1:14" stainless barrel
gave 2418 fps MV average. Accurate, max load.

Shorten the barrel to 24" and it will give about 2370 fps, guesstimated, by 24 fps/inch.

See the A-Square manual, for pressure tested data on 75 grains of RL-15, similar components.
Good safe load.

A-Square:

.416 Taylor 24" barrel of 1:10" twist,
75.0 grains RL-15
400gr Dead Tough RNSP
A-square brass
CCI-250 primer
COL of 3.340"
MV average of 2394 fps,
SD = 4fps
Pressure = 48,800 CUP where max allowed was 53,000 CUP (equivalent to 63,800 Pieso PSI),
well below max pressure.

Yep, you may need a drop tube.
Yep, you will need smaller charges for monometals of same weight.
Yep, 350-grainers are excellent idea in .416 Taylor,
especially for an FN solid.
Or 370-grain North Fork,
or 380-grain GSC.
Cat's meow.

NF Mike,
You got some pressure data to go with your velocity data?

Some of us get very similar results to that AA load for the .416 Taylor, and though some of us do not test for pressure, we have had no signs of problems at all.

Others?
Loose barrel, tight barrel, powder lot XXX, powder lot XYZ, blah, blah, blah ...

Maybe the A2 facility has a 37 foot drop tube that was a horn from an old steam ship. The second mate would yell at the engine room boss through it, "more steam laddies!, more steam!'.

I'll load up some of the 350 TSX and see what they do. This one hell of a nice rifle as well. ala Griffin & Howe. Wish I could get a pic of it on here. But for the cost of it, I could buy another Harley!
Think I'll stick with my ol' Ruger 'backwoods beater' for now.

Not on that specific round but I do have my opinions but I don't make decisions or expect others to do so from opinions. I've been on a doubles cartridge kick and let's say that the data has little in common with his (being diplomatic )

NF Mike,
It sounds as though your opinion of A2 load data is the same as mine! I guess we can leave it at that.

Heh, this damn thing shoots! Will put five 410 gr. Woodleigh softs and solids in one ragged hole at 100 with 70.0 RL-15.
1.5-5 Leupy scope.
Took all the wiring and tripod but forgot the damn Chrono, so will have to check speed tomorrow.
Now to load up some 350 TSX. . . . . .

Good work.

Try the short North Fork while you are playing with the TSX. More uniform performance.

Enjoying the thread and thought I would throw in a couple of loads.

I have been thru the RL 15 with fair results with 400 WL (71.5); 370 NF (71.5); 350 TSX (71.5); 350 AFR (71.5) and am now into working on same bullets with IMR 4320 which is looking a tad better and seem to get a little more of this powder into a case w/o unduly compressing as my magazine will take only 3.30 max.

Will be working on the IMR and breaking out the chrono soon. Anyone have better results with the IMR 4320 than the RL 15?

The older data I read before doing any loading mentioned 4320 as not all that good, so it was dropped from consideration. But as always; that was with the gun that was being tested. Every gun may respond a little different. So far I found the bullet has made the biggest difference in the rifle I'm testing.
Good luck.

quote:

Originally posted by DWright:
Heh, this damn thing shoots! Will put five 410 gr. Woodleigh softs and solids in one ragged hole at 100 with 70.0 RL-15.
1.5-5 Leupy scope.
Took all the wiring and tripod but forgot the damn Chrono, so will have to check speed tomorrow.
Now to load up some 350 TSX. . . . . .

Dennis

Do take into account, if the thing is shooting really good with the 400s you do not have to have 2350 fps to do a jam up job on buffalo. I would be very satisfied with 2250 fps and hammer down. If your guy insists on a 400. Also in older tests those 416 Woodleighs are wonderful, not soft as the 458 Woodleighs! They would make an excellent choice for that first shot at 2250 or there abouts.

Michael

Thanks Michael, and ya when he see's the targets, I doubt he will want to change aything.

Still not sure of velocity. Went hunting ground squirrels with the .375 today; took out 3.

Found some good Bear hunting canyons that made the hills where I took Capoward look like flatland! Didn't want to leave another rifle in the jeep while hiking. Maybe next week.

Dennis

Here are a couple of random observations. Please print out and put into the bottom of the canary cage. That will cure Tweety's constipation or diarrhea; I forget which.

Todays 4320 is not our daddy's 4320. There was a nice write up in Handloader about a year ago in the propellant profile's section. The message I took home was that Hodgdon went up to Ontario and said, "Okay youse hosers, put down the Moosehead, aaand read this manual on QA. The final exam is tomorrow. The practical will occur over the next month. If they let you in the gate on the first of next month, you passed. Youse dat are drinking Labatt's can go home now; your last check will arrive this Friday." Or words to that effect. Anyway, 4320 is now certainly worth a look at in the Taylor, Lott and other cartridges if you are interested in doing so.

RL-15 works so nicely because it is loaded in millions upon millions of military small arms cartridges in the Western/Northern world. The contracts specify stable performance over a wide range of temperatures. The main advantage of RL-15 over Varget is that it burns 1.2 RCHs slower, and I believe, is a touch more compact.

4064 is a very nice propellant that I rediscover every five years or so. I just helped a new Garand competitor get started. He put together 1,000 rounds of Winchester brass with ~ 47.0 grains of 4064 and 175 grain naked SMKs into ten MTM 100 count boxes. We found him a good coach, and both he and his rifle are very happy with the diet. The only difficulties with the 4064 are that one, it is sized like "lincoln logs" and requires weighing of each charge, and two, power drops off somewhat at zero degrees, and jumps up a bit at 40 degrees Celsius (105 degrees or so fahrenheit). The second issue is not a big deal in the 416 Taylor so long as you load mild loads in clement weather, and test them thoroughly in warmer weather, be that in Texas, Arizona or any place that has the same weather as your hunting destination. That advice does also apply to 4320 and RL-15, BTW. Avoid surprises.

Resident Curmudgeon Will's papal encyclical about only using 400 grain bullets has merit, within some broad limits. The Taylor is a space limited cartridge, and happiest with traditional cup and core bullets, purely because of their volume. The major manufacturers invariably buy up a lone inventor's excellent bullet design, and then start shaving costs by using guilding metal instead of 1/2 hard, or even pure, copper. They will also not use enough steel in the jacket, or not enough copper/guilding metal over the steel. Sometimes they do not lock the lead filler in at the base of the projectile.

The newer monometal or semi-monometal designs generally penetrate deeper and drive straighter, even at the cost of lighter overall weight (that small boiler room thing again).

On balance the various bullet designs (given that each is done correctly for its type) tend to balance out.

My last point for the canary to shit on is that the 416 Rigby made its bones with a 400 to 410 projectile of decent but not great construction at a realistic velocity of 2,300 to 2,350 fps.

If your pet load sends a very high quality 350-400 grain bullet out the tube accurately and reliably every time you pull the trigger, you are at your destination.

Do not forget to seal the primer (and bullet if you so desire), run every cartridge through your rifle so you know they go into battery as easily as a politician lies out of both sides (of his/her mouth, that is).

Oh yes, the most important thing PRACTICE, PRACTICE and then get serious about some quality PRACTICE. There are quite a few .416 diameter bullets from 300 to 350 grains available at low cost. On the big hunt, your rifle should be like an extension of your will, same as for a high quality shotgun.