So while looking through Taylor’s African rifles and cartridges the other day I got to thinking, how some of those cartridges managed to be rather popular even 70+ years later and some are just footnotes.

While developed and release in the same era, for one reason or another certain cartridges have never achieved the same level of popularity or cache that such “classics” as .375 H&H, .416 Rigby, .404Jeffery, .505 Gibbs, .500Jeffery, and a few others seem to have achieved.

(It is worth noting that more than a few of these “Classic” cartridges have achieved a level of popularity today totally out of proportion to their original production!)

So I got to thinking why certain cartridges didn’t seem to make the grade, and what could have been…

.425 Westley Richards

While released 4 years after the .404, it came out of the gate 150fps faster, it had a 2 year head start on the .416 Rigby, and did not require a magnum action! So how was this advantage squandered?
Two Words: Rebated Rim. A heavily rebated one. I think this design quirk just made it too much trouble for other rifle makers to chamber the cartridge. And the low end guns chambering the cartridge gave it a bad rep.

Makes one wonder what would have happened if WR did not rebate the rim, and maybe shortened the barrel by a few inches… It would have been a lot easier conversion for other makers when released to the trade after a few years, and may have become far more prevalent in the African hunting fields.


.350 Rigby magnum

Release in 1908 - But with an original loading of a 225gr bullet at 2625fps: it just failed to measure up against the .375 H&H when it came out four years later. It makes one wonder though; what might have happened if instead of the original load, the .350 Rigby was loaded with a 280gr bullet at 2425fps?

It wouldn’t have been down on power to the .375 overly much, and with a four year head start it might have given the .375 H&H a real run for its money.


.458 Winchester Magnum

Release to a waiting safari world in 1956, its timing couldn’t have been more perfect. Yes it had early teething troubles, but still went on to slay untold thousands of head of big game. So how come it isn’t regarded as one of the cool kids like the .416Rigby?

Winchester got the timing right, but zigged when they should have zagged when it came to the cartridge design. At the time it originally came out it was just a bit too short on case capacity.

And it’s just never quite been able to shake its early reputation. Though with modern powders much of the early criticism has been overcome – it seems to be a case of too little too late.


Kind of make one wonder what would have happened if instead of 2.5” and 500gr they had stretched things out a bit to 2.65” and a lighter 480gr bullet - trying to duplicate the .450NE instead of the .470.

I’m sure that they’re a few more candidates for the “almost classic” club but those are the ones that stuck out to me off the top of my head.



.

I kind of always wondered about the 318 WR.

It was very popular at one time and then died.

Was it the unique bullet diameter of .330? Was it the company WR? Was it overly long barrels?

Of course we could say it was Kynoch, but then why did the 416 Rigby, etc. make it to today?

What happend to the 318 WR?

I'll grant you the .375 is without a doubt number one.

But, just out of curiosity over the decades how do your "Classics"
really compare in game taken to the .458 ?

The. 416 for instance. Isn't it true that prior to WW2 only a few hundred were made?
The year I bought a Winchester .458 in the 90's I read around 600 were made.

The .416 was I assume made in small numbers up until a resurgence in the 2000's.
Up until then if any one even heard of it the only way to fire these guns were to find old Kynoch
ammo or turn the belt off a Weatherby and roll your own if you can find the bullets.

It's one thing to call something a classic because of excellent writers or a romantic love but credit should be given were credit is due.

I think of all the Big Bores the .458 deserves the title of Classic.

Could it be British rifles written about by romantic largely English writers or their fans? Clearly out of the gate performance was also critical. All the ones you list had this in common and Taylors book was also a factor. Interesting other than Jeffrey these are largely bolt rifles and the above would apply to the .450,.470, .500,and .577 doubles and most other diamonds.

I could have sworn I read some were the most common big bores used by game departments were the .404 and
.458.

Would these gentlemen pretty much outclass everyone else in game culled as far as volume?

What qualifies as a classic?


The cartridge or cartridges used predominantly?

Or, it just looks pretty and it's a really expensive rifle so it's better...

Really, up until about 15 years ago who in the world other than dedicated gun kranks
ever heard of the 505 Gibbs?

It wasn't even popular when it was new. classic?

quote:

Originally posted by Colt Commander:
I could have sworn I read some were the most common big bores used by game departments were the .404 and
.458.

Would these gentlemen pretty much outclass everyone else in game culled as far as volume?

What qualifies as a classic?


The cartridge or cartridges used predominantly?

Or, it just looks pretty and it's a really expensive rifle so it's better...

Really, up until about 15 years ago who in the world other than dedicated gun kranks
ever heard of the 505 Gibbs?

It wasn't even popular when it was new. classic?

You are correct, of course, but, there are a few cartridges used by game departments other than the 2 you mentioned.
Regarding the 505 Gibbs, it's popularity was non-existent when first derived, it wasn't until Ernest Hemingway made his main character be the owner of a 505 that it's popularity began to rise.
I first read about it in the 90's, saw some pics, and was instantly interested. I now own one and like it a lot.

Cheers.

quote:

.350 Rigby magnum

Release in 1908 - But with an original loading of a 225gr bullet at 2625fps: it just failed to measure up against the .375 H&H when it came out four years later. It makes one wonder though; what might have happened if instead of the original load, the .350 Rigby was loaded with a 280gr bullet at 2425fps?

It wouldn’t have been down on power to the .375 overly much, and with a four year head start it might have given the .375 H&H a real run for its money.

I think you are right. When bullets caught up to the fps the difference would have been even less. The 358 Norma mag is probably close to what it would do, and I have seen one load (not verified) of a 280 right at 2500.

When I think 350 Rigby I think Denys Finch Hatton and the world is right again. Both are/were classy.

425 WR - if you don't rebate the rim, you need the magnum action to have a big enough diameter of the bolt to handle the cartridge. The rebated rim and ability to fit into the standard Mauser action go hand-in-hand, without the one you don't get the other.

350 Rigby, also called 350/400 Rigby - earlier rimmed double gun cartridge that did indeed use a 310 grain bullet at 2100 fps instead of the later 350 Rigby Magnum's 225 grain bullet at 2625 fps

505 Gibbs, like the other big .500+ cartridges (500 Jeffery, 500, 577 & 600 NE) were never "popular" in their heyday - none of these cartridges had even 100 total rifles made for them before WWII. The double rifles made were typically in 400/450 NE or 450 NE, then the later various 465 to 475 NE cartridges after the British outlawed the 45 caliber for civilians. Bolt actions were almost always in 375 H&H or smaller cartridges, as already mentioned the 416 Rigby cartridge was chambered in very few rifles made before the 1990's.

458 Winchester really should have been on the full length belted magnum case (a factory 450 Watts/458 Lott/450 Ackley), but winchester marketing was insistent that it "match" the other cartridges winchester introduced in the 1950's that were all 2.5" case lengths - the 264, 300 & 338 winchester cartridges.

quote:

Originally posted by CMcDermott:
458 Winchester really should have been on the full length belted magnum case (a factory 450 Watts/458 Lott/450 Ackley), but winchester marketing was insistent that it "match" the other cartridges winchester introduced in the 1950's that were all 2.5" case lengths - the 264, 300 & 338 winchester cartridges.

Just FYI, the .300 Win Mag is actually 2.62" in length, because Norma beat Winchester to market with a 2.5" ".30-338 Magnum" by 3 years.

.458 Win Mag - 1956
.338 Win Mag - 1958
.264 Win Mag - 1959
.308 Norma Mag - 1960
.300 Win Mag - 1963

quote:

Originally posted by Colt Commander:
I could have sworn I read some were the most common big bores used by game departments were the .404 and
.458.

Would these gentlemen pretty much outclass everyone else in game culled as far as volume?

It's apparently just one of those weird things...

The .458wm early design snafu's just seem to follow it around like a black cloud whenever it gets mentioned. I doubt that there's been an internet thread or magazine article in the last 30 years that hasn't cussed and discussed its early shortcomings whenever its been mentioned as a possible chambering for a new rifle.

Look at almost every thread about the .458Wm on this site - most people say: "WTF? Why? Just get a Lott..."

But you mention the .404 Jeffery or .416 Rigby, and people go: "Ooohhh, yes that's a really nice cartridge..."

quote:

Originally posted by Colt Commander:
What qualifies as a classic?

Just my personal observations of what cartridges seem to be held in "Classic" esteem by gun writers, PH's, AR african hunting cognoscenti, etc... and in-spite of copious amount of big game killed, for whatever reason, the .458wm ain't it.


.

quote:

Originally posted by CMcDermott:
425 WR - if you don't rebate the rim, you need the magnum action to have a big enough diameter of the bolt to handle the cartridge. The rebated rim and ability to fit into the standard Mauser action go hand-in-hand, without the one you don't get the other.

I respectfully disagree. The mauser magnum action had the same diameter bolt as the standard size. it's length gave it the "magnum" moniker.

And plenty of .404 jeffery rifles were made on standard length mauser actions, (probably exponentially more than were made on magnum length ones.) and its case is virtually equal in width to the .425WR.

quote:

Originally posted by CMcDermott:
505 Gibbs, like the other big .500+ cartridges (500 Jeffery, 500, 577 & 600 NE) were never "popular" in their heyday - none of these cartridges had even 100 total rifles made for them before WWII. The double rifles made were typically in 400/450 NE or 450 NE, then the later various 465 to 475 NE cartridges after the British outlawed the 45 caliber for civilians. Bolt actions were almost always in 375 H&H or smaller cartridges, as already mentioned the 416 Rigby cartridge was chambered in very few rifles made before the 1990's.

Hence the third sentence in my original post:

It is worth noting that more than a few of these “Classic” cartridges have achieved a level of popularity today totally out of proportion to their original production!


.

TwoZero,

I can answer the 425 WR. I am having one built, and the cure is a simple one.
I am using a magnum bolt on my Colombian Mauser and 404 Jefferys cases. At 3.30" oal on a loaded round, they fit nicely in a standard box.

I make the cases by running the 404J case thru a 425WR forming die, them trimming them to correct length of 2.64". I have form and trim dies for the 425, as well as reloading dies.

The 425 WR, as issued, makes more ME than the 416 Rigby with the same weight bullet due to a slightly higher factory velocity.

Strike one was the rebated rim. They thought it wonderful as it allowed the use of stripper clips in the pre-scope ear. That did not work very well because of the fat case body.

Strike two was the absurdedly long factory barrels at 28".

Strike three was the pair of ears on the best grade action at the rear, and lack of one on the "Colonial" version. Rounds would pop up too high to feed on a regular basis. DG hunting requires 100% feeding reliability.

Couple that with the headstart the 404 J had, and it was doomed from the start.


Rich

quote:

Originally posted by surefire7:

What happend to the 318 WR?

In the process of something of a comeback. Used, vintage ones in good condition sell for decent money these days - if you can find one, that is. Components are available from a number of sources. They used to be dirt cheap here in SA. No more! Same goes for the .350 Rigby Magnum.

quote:

Originally posted by CMcDermott:
425 WR - if you don't rebate the rim, you need the magnum action to have a big enough diameter of the bolt to handle the cartridge. The rebated rim and ability to fit into the standard Mauser action go hand-in-hand, without the one you don't get the other.

I respectfully disagree. A Magnum Mauser bolt is the same diameter as the standard M98's bolt. A .425 that's not rebated is the same thing as a .404 Jeffery, and in fact the conversion to an unrebated .425 is easy to make. All you need is another M98 bolt and some .404 Jeffry cases. Hundreds, if not thousands, of .404's have been made on standard M98's.

The only rounds that could be remotely considered classic, by use alone would be the .375, 404, 425, 458 & .450, 470 Nitros.

Along with singular wildcats that are in the hands of others that outstrip these so called classics.

If these classics were so popular other than to a few elitests who want to maintain their status, there would be no reason for even wildcats.

Though, from what I read, a lot of these in country fellows seem to be choosing either their own wildcat designs or ones already designed.

Look at the "Honey" of the big bores. The 700 Nitro Express! Every fantasy fulfilled in the big bore world.
In reality, nothing more than one individual with huge amounts of money and an epic inferiority complex that whined until he got what he wanted.
It's nothing more than a 12 bore that's been McDonalds happy meal super sized.
At the time "writers" claimed it was the end all of African big bores and should be praised as a deity.
Wake up.

This is reminding me of what I see on the Colt 1911 forums. Just plain old bashing.
Someone doesn't like the .458 and wants to bring it down to size by making their ideals the hieght of what they think it should be.

Most of the 'classic' African calibers had a famous writer or story behind them that kept/keeps them in the forefront.

Off the top of my head...

7mm mauser-Bell
375H&H-Taylor
416 Rigby- Ruark
404 Jeffery- 'game departments'
505 Gibbs- Hemingway


Who waxed poetically about the 350 Rigby?

Exactly my point.

quote:

Originally posted by CMcDermott:

350 Rigby, also called 350/400 Rigby - earlier rimmed double gun cartridge that did indeed use a 310 grain bullet at 2100 fps instead of the later 350 Rigby Magnum's 225 grain bullet at 2625 fps

I think he is talking about the rimless 350 Rigby Magnum rather than the 350No.2 Rigby which is the rimmed cartridge.
All great cartridges that were eclipsed by the popularity of the 375H&H

When the .600 is not mentioned it is like a cork screw to my heart.
Cal.

PS. .350 no2 Rigby was perhaps the first cartridge to use the 75% rule commercially.

James Watts was the first to blow out the .375 H&H to .45 caliber. To lessen recoil he shortened it to 2.5" and called it the .450 Watts short. He contacted Winchester about his two cartridges and Win. passed on the longer version but produced the short version as their .458. I have all the correspondence and copyrights of Jim when I did my book on his life. He was a great guy. Lott simply stole his idea and as he was a well known writer and hunter, he got the credit. Watts did his work 22 years before Lott did his.
Cheers, gents.
Cal

Sorry Cal.

"The .600 Nitro Express, throwing its massive 900 grain bullet was without a doubt the most impressive of all the doubles for its time"

What I am implying is that the true work horses are given a back seat to the little used "Glamour Boys".

It reminds me of one of my Fathers very good friends, a Fighter pilot during WW2 in Europe. P-51D Mustangs & P-47 Thunderbolts.

He said, " All the pilots would get their pictures taken in the Mustangs because they were pretty and had a sexy reputation. But when the shit hit
the fan they all jumped in the P-47's..... it really pissed me off".

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
When the .600 is not mentioned it is like a cork screw to my heart.
Cal.

PS. .350 no2 Rigby was perhaps the first cartridge to use the 75% rule commercially.

James Watts was the first to blow out the .375 H&H to .45 caliber. To lessen recoil he shortened it to 2.5" and called it the .450 Watts short. He contacted Winchester about his two cartridges and Win. passed on the longer version but produced the short version as their .458. I have all the correspondence and copyrights of Jim when I did my book on his life. He was a great guy. Lott simply stole his idea and as he was a well known writer and hunter, he got the credit. Watts did his work 22 years before Lott did his.
Cheers, gents.
Cal

I'm curious, is there anything in the correspondence that indicates why they thought going to the short version was the way to go?

Especially in light of the fact that the Mod70 was already chambered in the 'long' .375 & .300 H&H cartridges?

Did they encounter none of the capacity issues everyone else seems to find? Or did they just not care? After all, once kynoch rendered a whole lot of cartridges & rifles obsolete by stopping production, for a few decades the .458wm was virtually the only game in town...



.

I would respectfully disagree with the notion that Watts was the first FL 375 offering and that Lott "stole" the case design twelve to fifteen years later. I might buy that if I did not have the first edition Ackley books with several gunsmith versions of the FL 375 case as well as five boxes of NORMA cylindrical brass out in my shop.

Barnes had one listed as being made by using the NORMA cylindrical case, Ackley's own nearly identical design, as well as Watts. Buhmiller had one as well, same basic case. Newton also had a 45 Magnum, offered during the early to mid-20's.

Did James Watts ever publish articles anything on this cartridge?

I am curious...

Rich

What was it; the banning of 45 caliber bullets in I think the Sudan and India by the Brits due to native uprisings? Anyway, if that had not happened the 470, 465, 425 etc. would never have come along due to the popularity of and complete trust in the 450 N.E., a 480 grain bullet at 2,150. I believe the 458 winnie is coming back. Even when it was only doing 1,900 at times it still got the job done.

I have encountered more doubles in 450-400, of both iterations, than any other caliber at the turn of the 20th Century. Next, in that generation, was the .450 NE and .500NE. Just my observations.

quote:

Originally posted by surefire7:
I kind of always wondered about the 318 WR.

It was very popular at one time and then died.

Was it the unique bullet diameter of .330? Was it the company WR? Was it overly long barrels?

Of course we could say it was Kynoch, but then why did the 416 Rigby, etc. make it to today?

What happend to the 318 WR?

Good guestion....

It was a very effective calibre with heawy bullets..
Some years I used a 8mm-06 with 220grs Woodleigh bullets for moosehunting.
Worked very vell with little recoil..
Made me think about how nice it would be to have a 318

M

I consider the 9.3x62 one of the great African rounds with the 9.3x64B a could have been.

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
I consider the 9.3x62 one of the great African rounds with the 9.3x64B a could have been.

I agree with the 9.3x64B - probably another case of bad bullet design...? maybe if it was turned down 100fps or so from the start?

Either way those German cartridges introduced in the late 1920's and 30's disappeared for a while after ww2.

But it seems that without a gun-writer champion, many cartridges (especially German ones) just fell by the wayside.

But one thing I've noticed is that the old British and German makers were far more willing to experiment with different cartridge sizes and calibers than modern cartridge manufacturers. Maybe it was more economically feasible to make money on the smaller production runs back then ...

I have just started reading Taylor's book again

The 8X57 is probably among the unsung work horses.

It was Taylor's comments on the .360 NE No. 2 that prompted me to buy a reamer from Dave Manson -- and a Ruger No. 1 donor rifle.

True African calibers is .577/450 MartiniHenry, .303, 7x57 and 8x57.