The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores .505 Gibbs vs .500 Jeff vs. .500 A-SquareGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| one of us |
You're going to get a bunch of knowledgeable replies to this, but before that happens I'd like to give you an opportunity to broaden the terms of the discussion. How about: .510-.505 Gibbs, or The advantage of the .510" bore is that you can get milsurp .510 bullets for as little as 22.5 cents each, with the more accurate APs going for 25 cents or so. And when you want to, you can get real hunting bullets or benchrest bullets for more. Disadvantages: The .505 Gibbs actually has a .505" bore, which makes the bullets a relative specialty item. Switch to .510". It's an easy neck-up, but only with a .510" barrel! The .505 Gibbs is an awfully long case at 3.150"... The .500 Jeffery has a rebated rim and a short neck, both bad things in a magazine rifle. Advantage: the .500 A-Square will fit almost anywhere a .460 Weatherby will fit. Caveat: anybody without a pressure gun is only guessing about what pressure is required to achieve their claimed performance. Springy hard brass and case capacity are clear winners. I note that the HDS .505 Gibbs brass is now available from Huntington and has been commented on favorably. From reading your post it appears that you have an A-Square reloading manual. The reason the .505 Gibbs seems so wimpy is because it is held to very low pressure by the governing body, the CIP. Back up and read the pages before the loads and you'll see that. There's room for more, faster powder in modern strong actions. I'm waiting for my .510-.505 Gibbs dies to come back from CH4D. As soon as I get to maximum or 2550 fps (whichever comes first) out of my 32" barrel, I'll report back. My brass (Bertram) is reported to be soft, so I will still have the option of switching to harder brass and trying again. | |||
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Paul: Who has military surplus .510 for under 25 cents? Thanks. | |||
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| one of us |
I'm sorry Paul. SDS: Who sells military .510 for under 25 cents? Thanks. | |||
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| One of Us |
I think that .510 diameter is far preferable to .505 diameter due to greater bullet selection in .510 diameter. Plus it is hard to find good quality .505 or 500 jeff brass. And it is very hard to get a 500 jeff to feed properly due to its rebated rim. But converting a cz550 to 500 a-square is relatively easy. And you can form from Norma 460 weatherby brass which is very high quality. 500 A-Square seems the natural choice, and least expensive. | |||
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| one of us |
Jeff Bartlett 1-800-714-6348 www.gibrass.com 25 cents each and less available in quantities of 1000. Reasonable prices on lesser quantities. Collet-pulled and sized and polished. Bob Forker of G&A said that ball wouldn't do much better than 2 MOA. I read somewhere that the AP does better than the ball. I can't comment on the accuracy of the 700gr. M2 Ball because practically every round I've fired has gone across the chronograph, or through lengths of telephone pole, or 650 yards to smack a piece of steel plate. I haven't fired for a small group yet. I have to wait for the dies to come back. CH4D generously offered to send me some .505 Gibbs dies at once to get me shooting, and to open them up later to .510-.505. I was traveling over the holidays, so I sent them back, and they hope to return them by the end of February. They've been so nice to me that I won't complain even if they take until the end of March. | |||
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Moderator |
I don't have time for a length reply, but: 500 A-square, pro's are it has the most affordable brass, $2 ea for 460 W. Con is it is the smallest case in capacity, and no nestalgia. The 500 Jeffrey is a totally unique case, hence costly @ $4-5 ea, and more scarce. Pro is it is a nastalgiac round. You also skipped the 500 AHR, which is the 500 Jeffrey with full dia rim, and longer neck. The 505 Gibbs is the largest case in capacity, which limits one to mamoth actions, and also limits one to .505" bullets. Some folks have used .510" barrels to shoot the more common bullets. A very nastalgiac round. 500 A-square seems to be the most practicle. I went with the 500 Jeffrey because I good a good deal on brass and barrel, still waiting for my barreled action so I can complete it. | |||
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| one of us |
Paul, I vote for the 500 A-Square equivalent of your choice. Mine is the 510 JAB. I have one on a Ruger No. 1 and another on a BRNO ZKK 602, the forebear of the CZ 550. The CZ 550 in 500 A-Square is the ultimate in "no nonsense." I have had no trouble getting the 700 grain M2 AP to go sub MOA in my guns with a 1:10" twist McGowen barrel, at 2200 fps. The Hornady A-Max 750 grainers will do 0.5 MOA at 2150 fps for me. You can shoot them out to 1000 yards with a 5 mil hold over and a 300 yard zero, if I recall. As for hunting bullets, 570 grain GS Custom FN's are sub MOA, and the Barnes XLC 570 grainer will group around MOA. These at 2400 to 2450 fps. I just don't need to go any faster than that. Ouch! I built mine during the A-Square/BATF mess and just engraved the barrel: 510/460 Weatherby Improved Jenkins and Berry Cute, huh? After my gunsmith and I. The engraving matches the good Norma weatherby brass, partially. No nonsense. Check out Mitch's 500A2 loads in the reloading pages if you want higher velocity. The 500A2 is to 50 cal. as the 458 Lott is to 45 cal. Very practical, no nonsense. ------------------ | |||
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Paul- I built a 500A2 on a CZ550 Mag action with a 1.2inch tapering to 1 inch,26 inch long pac-nor barrel. The action took only a little rail work to get to feed properly. I was even able to rework the CZ550- .416 stock for the 1 inch barrel. I deceided on this because of the availability of 460 WBY brass, Mil Surp bullets and the pure fun factor. It worked out just great and I reccomend it. Nothing I own that I can shoulder fire wacks things harder than this thing. It even makes near misses fatal to the local ground squirels.-Rob | |||
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| <500 AHR> |
Regarding actions, I would not recommend a M70 for any of the 50 caliber cartridges. The 500 A Square could be made to fit but it is marginal. The 500 Jeffery would need a single stack magazine with the M70. The 505 Gibbs is just too long for the M70. That leaves you with the true Magnum length Mausers. The most cost effective is the CZ550. If you like the lines and appearance of the M70 you could use a M76 Dakota African. The Gibbs is capable of much faster muzzle velocities than the old Cordite load. I used to load mine to 2500 fps. I currently own a 500 AHR and have loaded it up to 2680 fps with the 570 Woodleigh Solid. The recoil in my 10.5 pound rifle was a bit too much for hunting however. The 500 Jeffery will outperform the 460 Weatherby my a little energy wise. It is ballistically similar to the 500 A Square. The A Square is; however, capable of better ballistics than the Jeffery. One last item. If you choose to shoot milsurp bullets you will be limited to hand loading one at a time. The milsurps are just too long to allow for feeding from a magazine with a rifle based off of a Mauser Magnum anyway. I would recommend the 500 AHR or the 505 Gibbs. Both can outperform the 500 A Square and for a given muzzle velocity will operate at a lower pressure. You can find quality hunting bullets for both diameters. Todd E | ||
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| <500 AHR> |
Rob, You posted while I was typing. Interesting comment to support your ground squirrel story. I was hunting buffalo many years ago with my Father and one of his friends. My Father's friend was using a H&H Royal 500 NE and shot his buffalo through the shoulders. The buff went right down. When he had shot there was a tick bird sitting on the buffalo's back. When we got the buffalo there on the ground beside the buffalo was the tick bird stone dead. There was not a mark on the bird and the point of impact was at least 2 feet from were the bird had been. We could only surmise that the concusion from the bullets impact killed the bird. Todd E | ||
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Todd, I read about a simular tick bird incident in an old Outdoor Life or some such magazine or book, was that the same bird or is this a different incident?? I thought at the time it was freak accident, perhaps it is more common than I thought. ------------------ | |||
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| One of Us |
Here is a Win. model 70 in 500 jeffery with a 1/2 round and 1/2 octogon barrel. http://www.westleyrichards.com/usedguns.asp?Type=Rifles&ID=200112615172246 | |||
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A very informative thread! I see there have been good results with McGowan and PacNor barrels in this caliber. Are there any other recomended brands for this size bore? | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Atkinson: Hi Ray, A good chance what your remembering was the picture of Eylmer Keith holding the tick bird after hitting it with his 500 Boswell double. I've seen the picture in two articles. Paul, I think you will find the 500 A-Square enough velocity and recoil in one package and the best of the 50 cal cartridges as far as putting a rifle together and shooting costs. With a 23 inch barrel I can just manage 2400 fps with a 600 grain bullet. 470 Mbogo | |||
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| One of Us |
You can also get excellent .510 barrel blanks from Lothar Walther. | |||
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| one of us |
Folks- About 4 years ago I was testing a .50BMG at a secluded spot. There were alot of hummingbirds around. Just as I fired, one flew over the Muzzel break( an early model that looked like an overgrown Vias). Just as I was recovering from the recoil, the body of the hummingbird dropped onto my table stone dead and not a mark on it except some singed feathers. Poor thing got nailed by the concussion/fireball.-Rob | |||
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| <Paul Machmeier> |
Appreciate all the replies, you guys have given me a lot of ideas. The CZ550 conversion to .500 A-Square makes a great combination. However, I have a .460 Weatherby which is a good shooter, already, so maybe I should edge toward nostalgia as Paul H pointed out. Then I would probably lean toward a .505 Gibbs with .510 inch barrel. Again, you'll came through, ie. .505 means lack of brass--high price, and old loading data means wimpy performance even in the largest case, but can upgrade performance by reloading. What if I try to buy an older .505 Gibbs and rebarrel to .510 and load to 600-700 gr at 2350 fps, or is this a monster in anything less than a 13lb gun? Or should I start from scratch, seems like you would need the double bridge mauser action for the .505 Gibbs, though? | ||
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| <500 AHR> |
Ray, If it was written up in a magazine I know nothing of it. It happened about 20 years ago. I just thought of this. Ray, are you suggesting that I made this up? Todd [This message has been edited by Todd E (edited 02-26-2002).] | ||
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| Moderator |
quote: An older 505 gibbs will be very expspensive, and not practicle for re-barreling. Hamilton Bowen built a few 505's on the Ruger M77 magnum, by re-boring and re-chambering the factory barrel. The result is a barrel with integral 1/4 rib, sling swivel and front sight base. There is one at a local gunshop, they ordered 5, and the one remains for $2495. | |||
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| Moderator |
I used to have some data around here that was compiled by a guy in Italy. He has/had a 505 Gibbs with the .510 bore as being discussed. He did a lot of shooting and chronographing and sent the info to a friend of mine in the gun business. If my memory serves me I recall seeing his loads with 570gr Woodleighs at 2800fps and 600gr A-Square solids at 2750fps. Needless to say, recoil was brutal at those levels. The rifle had a 26" barrel and was built up on a custom Mauser action. If I were building a 500 something I would look at the 500AHR for a variety of reasons, nostalgia not being one of them. The 505 has suffered from soft and very expensive brass in the past. If Mast/Bell makes it now it will be good but still damned expensive. The action has to be highly modified and in reality the magnum Mauser is too small, mainly due to it's insufficient bolt body diameter. Ever look at an original Gibbs rifle and how they attacked that problem? Not good, IMO. IF I were to make a 505 Gibbs I would certainly talk to Granite Mountain Arms about one of their new Mauser actions that is built in proper dimensions for this howitzer sized case. The 500J has the rebated rim which is no good either, unless a single stack magazine is used. The case is the right size though, so the 500AHR is a logical choice here. The 500 A-Square is the cheapest and will deliver about all the horsepower and recoil anyone needs, albeit with higher pressures. I had one, weighed 13 pounds loaded and scoped. It wasn't bad to shoot on the range but I want no part of packing around 13lbs worth of rifle for elephant or buffalo hunting! | |||
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| <Butch Searcy> |
The 500 Jeffery on this page will be priced at $4000.00 at the Dallas Safari Convention. http://www.searcyent.com/forsale.htm | ||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Paul Machmeier: Hi Paul, If you are looking for a 600 grain bullet at 2350 with moderate pressures and the gun to be shootable the 500 A-Square falls into this catagory in spades and you can use the saved money for shooting supplies. There is no difference if your changing a 505 Gibbs to .510 or the 500 A-Square at .510 @ 2350 they both have low pressures. The 505 just has a more awkward and expensive delivery system. 470 Mbogo | |||
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| One of Us |
When my mate and I finish our .585 Nyatti's we are building we wanted to do a long range shooter, I see the 500 A2 being used to deliver .510 A-Max's and people are shooting at ranges of 1000 yards with this combo, to get a little more velocity would the .585 Nyatti case necked down to .510 increase velocity closer to that of the .50 BMG case ?. I realise it would be a single shot affair with the A-Max and one could use the 3" Nyatti case to neck down. Is this feasible? Has it been Done? Regards PC ------------------ | |||
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one of us |
Gentlemen, Could the 505 Gibbs case be necked up to .510 and shortened to 2.90? In looking at Ken Howell's book, shortening the case to 2.90 would leave a .400 length neck before necking up to .510. I've read that the 500 Jeffery was successful with a much shorter neck as is the 300 Win Mag. Also, no rebated rim. Just a thought. | |||
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Todd E, Not at all, Never crossed my mind, I recalled this happening to someone and it turns out it happened to Elmer Keith, read MBogo470's post...I thought perhaps it had been written up and It was the same incident and thats why I asked. I knew I had read it and now I know where. I would never insinuate something like that, its not my style, I'm to tactless to do that. ------------------ | |||
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| <500 AHR> |
Does anyone know what the case capacity of the Gibbs is. 168 Grains is what I remember, but I just do not trust the memory that much anymore. Ray, Todd [This message has been edited by Todd E (edited 02-27-2002).] | ||
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| one of us |
Todd, In Ken's book the 505 is listed as having 227 grains water and the 500 Jeffery is listed as holding 197 grains water. Hope that helps. | |||
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quote: Sounds like a fun rifle. Does it have a brake? What kind? What is the field weight? ~Holmes | |||
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| Moderator |
Alf- I fully agree with you about boosting pressures and velocities in the older original guns. There are very few of them out there and they are very valuable so why take the chance? That said, I know an original 505 Gibbs that just sold at the Beinfield Show in Las Vegas, price $15,000. IF I were interested in a 505 or 500, I assure you I would not be buying an original! I can have a better gun built for far less money. | |||
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| <500 AHR> |
Snapper, That is interesting. I have a 500 Jeffery vcase and it measures 148 grains of water. My 500 AHR measure 156 grains of water. I don't have any 505 Gibbs anymore, but I remember then measuring 168 grains. I think Ken's book has a mistake or two. Todd E | ||
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| <Paul Machmeier> |
The replies have been great and got me on a more realistic tract on the selection of the .500's. Well nostalgia is great but I am leaning toward the .500 A-Square or .500 AHR on the CZ 550 action. But still the Searcy .500 Jeff and the Les Bouska .505 Gibbs, all under 5K are headturners. The rebated rim problem and brass, bullets, etc. complicate things too much. Found the AHR site and am checking things out. One thing, I am not going to be in a hurry as I want this rifle to work and hope it is tameable. On that score, they are working on a .585 AHR, gives me a headache thinking about it. " If a man has to know his limitations, I think I just found it". Will be a happy camper if I can handle a .500 with 600 gr at 2300 fps without swapping eyeballs. Thanks for all suggestions! | ||
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| one of us |
For the most bang for the buck, you just can't beat the CZ550 .416 to 500 A2 conversion. Considering you can get a complete .416 Rigby for about $650 and have Pac-Nor rebarrel and chamber it for about $550 followed by doing dome simple stock and rail work yourself. Then You too can be launching 750 gr mini-missles at your target of choiceand of course earn major bragging rights on this board. It seems to me you can have about 15 of these things for the price of an original 505 Gibbs.-Rob | |||
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| <George Hoffman> |
Ray, This story is quite true. Elmer keith wrote about it in his book on Africa. Iff memory is any good. it was Robert Petersen who shot a Rhino in Kenya and the tick bird was killed. George | ||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores .505 Gibbs vs .500 Jeff vs. .500 A-Square
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