I currently own a Pedersoli double in .45/70. I was thinking of trying to convert this rifle to .450 No.2 Nitro Express. Has anyone done this? If so what was your experience? Also can anyone give me the pressure generated by factory .45/70 rounds versus the .450 No. 2 Nitro?

Thanks for your help.

I have not done this conversion so I will not comment there. With regard to load pressures. The factory 45-70 loads are around 25000 CUP. Some of the factory hot rod 45-70 runs upto 39000 to 40000 CUP.
The 450 NE would have a peak pressure of about 37000 CUP. That would be a 480 gr @ 2150 fps.

Hope this helps. An easier conversion my be to 45-120 Sharps. Almost identical to the 450 NE and load data is readily available from Hodgdon's website.

Homebrew,
Does the rifle group well? If it does, I would suggest garrett ammo and be done with it. You wont get 450 NE vels, but you'll have a rifle that is regulated.
If it sprays all over the place, with all loads, I STILL think it's not worth the effort.
If you would like to sell and start the process for a new double, please let me know, via email (not kidding) I think starting with the 45/70 and trying to regulate will be nothing but a never ending chore.
jeffe

In June I had a 45-70 Pedersoli converted to 450 NE No. 2 by MacKools Firearms in Tulsa, Oklahoma. There was no problem with regulation other than the 450 shot 3 inches lower at 25 yards than the rifle did as a 45-70. 50 yard groups were within an 1.5 inches and 100 yard groups were within 3 inches. It was a SUBSTANTIAL increase in recoil and you will definitely want a good recoil pad to replace the thin factory one. This rifle shot wonderfully as a 45-70 with all factory ammo I tried and even shot the heavy Garrett loads with acceptable hunting accuracy. I took the rifle to RSA in mid June and made a spectacular running kill shot on a blue wildebeest, killed a giraffe and the rifle killed a huge eland bull. My PH fell in love with the gun and told me it fell down a warthog hole while he was carrying it one day and compensated me by excusing the trophy fees on the 10 animals I killed during my trip. I am going to convert another one, but will make it a 45-120 this time just to try something different and less expensive to feed.

Perry

PWN,

I am curious about the conversion?

What was the cost of converting the rifle, did the smith handle the regulation? and are you shooting factory ammo?

Doubles always intrigue me just gathering info. Your story and pics make me want one!

Thanks in advance.

BD

Bigdog,

The cost was less than $800.00 and included installation of a better recoil pad. The rifle did not need to be re-regulated. It shot Safari Arms ammo with only a minor adjustment to raise the POI.

Perry

Talk about luck! At least I'm inclined to believe that you were extremely lucky. The alternative is to believe that all this talk about the difficulties of double rifle regulation is overblown and I'm not ready to concede that, yet. $800 + around, what, $2200 for the Pedersoli? Veerrryyyy innnnteresting!

[ 09-02-2002, 02:30: Message edited by: Oldsarge ]

Perry,

Thanks for the info. - I would guess they rechambered and installed a recoil pad only?

Did you find the use of the hammers cumbersome in the field? or natural?

I would imagine the Safari Arms ammo was the original load for the 450 N.E.#2 480 gr bullet @ 2150 fps? Does it shoot softs and solids to the same POI? What brass did Safari Arms use?

Sarge - You're right VVVVVVEEEERRRRRYYYYY IIIINNNNTTTTEEEERRRREEESSSSTTTTTIIIINNNGGG

The A-Square Pressures Allowable are "maximum average" 35,559 CUP or 39,913 Piezo PSI (How precise!) for the .450 #2 N.E.

And the A-Square manual shows loads that give 2201 and 2200 fps (How precise!) with a 465 grain bullet at only 26,500 to 26,800 CUP, for IMR-4831 and RL-22 respectively. That is 110 grains of IMR-4831 and 117 grains of RL-22. The barrel length was 26".

I can't find any actual pressure tested loads with modern powders in Graeme Wright for this cartridge.

Dang! This sounds like a good idea!

Pedersoli recommended pressures of 28,000 CUP or PSI, I don't recall which. Somebuddy who know?

And where was that Pedersoli website with a picture of this 45-70 that cries out for conversion to 450#2NE? Somebuddy who know?

Sounds like Pedersoli ought to buy himself a 450 No. 2 reamer.

Dagga,

Somebuddy answers....



Web site is

http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/eng/default.htm

If anyone else tries it and works, please let us all know.

And wouldn't it be great for Pedersoli to offer it in the first place.

I for one would have had one ... yesterday.

[ 08-16-2002, 23:14: Message edited by: NitroExpress.com ]

I've decided to take the bull by the horns and contacted Pedersoli to see if they want to join these discussions.

Maybe we could persuade them to offer a Nitro Express Kodiak????

Go get 'em, Nitro! If they can keep the price close to the original there'll be double rifles all over the place . . . including Lakewood!

Thanks for all of the input guys. I still haven't decided what I want to do but the thought of the conversion is very intriguing. If I do convert to .450 No. 2 I'll let you know how it turns out.

What's the advantage of converting to .450 #2 rather than the original .450 NE? The ballistics are the same and I understand that the first version can be easily formed out of BELL or Norma basic .45 brass. Just curious, understand.

Sarge ,

I think it has something to do with pressures? I believe the #2 works within a reasonable operating pressure of a 45-70 +p load.

The standard 450 N.E. might be exceeding the design pressure of the rifle.

Just a thought but not sure.

My .02 worth

BD

Ditto bigdog. To get the mostest for the lowest pressure.

Well that makes sense. Both the .450 #2 and the .475 #2 are notorious for their enormous cases. In fact, I recall a PH who stated that even though he knew that the ballistics were no great shakes, it just made him feel more confident to put that pair of giant cigars into the breeches of his double. Shoot, this could be a whole new rebirth for a grand old cartridge that has fallen on hard times.

Homebrew
Before you go through all that effort, try 45-70 Garrett Cartridges 420gr Hammerheads, I think you will be quite pleased with the results! If not, you can always convert it!
I have then had one. Took it to Africa and had a ball with it. Needless to say, it now resides permanently in the hands of my African P.H.
I go there often to visit it and resupply him with Garrett's Hammerheads!
Vince

Add 600 fps to those Hammerheads and they might even be better.

Or a 500 gr premium .45 solid and SP at the 450 No 2 speeds.

Why convert the 45/70 to 450 No2 and not 450 3 1/4? It might have something to do with rim thickness.
45/70 0.070
450 3 1/4 0.042
450 No2 0.080
which controls headspace.

Can be summed up in three words.

PRESSURE, PRESSURE, PRESSURE

BD

Just for your information, I have the 134th Kodiak to come off the maker's bench. It was re-chambered to 458 RCBS the following year. The origenal 45-70 shot to the sights at 100 yds, and printed 2" composit groups with Winchester factory 300 gr ammo( the round the regulation was done with). It also shot the loads I had been useing in my 45-70 Ruger No1, which were with a 400 gr Speer bullet pushed to 2000 FPS, same 2" grouping same POE.

When the rifle was re-chambered for 458 RCBS, the 400 gr bullets were getting 2100 fps, and shot to the same POE, and grouped 2.5" @100 yds.

The smith who did the re-chambering said he thought it would handle far higher pressures than the 458 RCBS was putting out! I don't want to get into a strenth discussion here, but the Kodiak has a lot of steel around the chambers, and even with pritty heavy load, I haven't experienced any indue pressure sign. The RCBS is the same length as a 375 H&H case for all practical purposes. I'm going th have this 458RCBS re-chambered again, to 450NE 3.25" at PWN's smith in Tulsa, along with a Ruger No1H 458 win mag. for a scoped rifle to go with the double!

Sarge, I believe the brass you are talking about is "450 basic brass" not 45 basic. The 458 RCBS is made from 45 basic, which is nothing more than a 45-70 case with a 3.25" case, and cut back to 2.75" to make the 458 RCBS. The 450NE 3.25" is a far easier round to get brass, and dies for, than the 450#2 NE! The guys who re-chambered PWN's rifle have 450NE 3.25" reamers as well, and will re-chamber accordingly.

Ah! Thanx, Mac, I guess I'll have to get me a part-time job as I now have two items on my wish list afte I get back from Africa next year. Hmmm, if I did that Pedersoli and put a nice walnut stock on my .375 I'd have another Perfect African Pair. Damn! That makes 4! It must be time to start selling off part of the safe. . .

Any thoughts about another, maybe simpler conversion? I see Starline has 45-90 2.4 and 45-100 2.6 cases, reasonably priced. Lyman has dies for both, for about $45. I guess if you want a .458 mag equivalent, the BIG cases make sense. It just seemed with the 2.6 case, loaded at 45-70 pressures you'd have a pretty stout round. Bob

I've thought about simple conversions but I'm drawn by the nostalgia of the old British nitro express rounds. I like the .450 Nitro #2 because of the relatively low breech pressure and you have to love that huge cartridge(even if it is expensive)! Does anyone know who I could get to do a nice job with the conversion? I've decided to take the plunge!

Homebrew,

I am going to talk to my smith next week.

I too will take the pludge after the 416 Taylor is done - I can't wait.

WOW - This is going to be fun!!!!!

Now stop talking about it you guys are killing me!!!

BD

Thanks McD37. I can't believe I missed that.

This is going to be awesome, a double Nitro Express gun right in Cary

J.

Received a reply from Pedersoli on Saturday

"Thank you for your email August 16, we could read back from Summer holidays.

We take note of your information and we appreciate your suggestion for this new caliber.

We will keep it in mind for future developments, which are driven by the request of our main importers, who support us in the investments costs of new projects with their sales.

Best regards,

DAVIDE PEDERSOLI & C. Snc."

So I guess we all need to get onto the local distributors and start clambouring for one!!!!

Here is their distributors listing.

http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/eng/distributori.htm

I hit them all up today including Pedersoli. I don't think we'll get much help from the black powder outfits but it doesn't hurt to try. I wouldn't think it would cost that much for them to chamber for the .450 as well as the .45-70 but who knows. Maybe an intense barrage of interested "potential" customers will change their mind.

Eric

All of the distributors I've received replies from say they no longer carry any of the rifles. Here's Pedersoli's reply:

Dear Dir,
Thank you for your inquiry and for the interest in our guns.
We know that some of the owners of our Kodiak MK IV in 45-70 caliber converted it to shoot .450 Nitro Express ammo. The rifle is quite strong, however our current production is in this caliber and in 9,3x74R and 8x57JRS and we must keep our recommendations to what the C.I.P. rules are for these calibers.
We will keep into consideration your proposal for future projects.
Best regards,
DAVIDE PEDERSOLI & C. Snc.

Homebrew, please keep me posted

[ 09-08-2002, 03:42: Message edited by: Mauser416 ]