Hi guys,

Hypothetically, just say one was armed with a .458WM or Lott loaded with Woodleigh's (or any other conventional bullet) and either by accident or it was all one had, shot an elephant with a softpoint instead of a solid, what chance would it have for a quick kill?

Just asking coz I'm sure it happens, a hunter has mixed his ammo up and used softpoints on elephant.

Thanks guys,

Russ.

Would not be a smart move and likely will cost you a trophy fee, particularly on a bull.

Well - I agree with OZ ... BUT - to a certain degree it also depends on type of expanding bullet and caliber used.. I am quite sure that a 585 or 620 non con from CEB at a decent velocity would take an ele bull on a side brain shot without difficulty.. Lesser calibers maybe as well.. On a frontal shot - even the best penetrating non cons would be marginal at best.. But it might be possible.. But again I would emphasize to always only use (big flatnosed) solids on elephants..

I killed a bull last year with 300 gr TSX from a 375 H&H. The shot was a semi-frontal from elevation, so that point of aim was just above the eye.

He had 2 solids in his lungs, so this was not the first shot. Of course I would not recommend that, but in that instance it was what I had and it worked fine.

It is totally irresponsible to hunt Elephant with any bullet other than a solid. To do so puts your entire hunting party at undue risk.

That having been said, shit happens. If I was hunting Buff with a magazine full of CEB Raptors and an Ele came from the bush close in, I'd be shooting those Raptors as fast and accurately as possible. That in no way implies it is "OK" to hunt Ele with other than quality solids.

badboymalvin. we've tested woodleigh soft point bullets with my 500 N.E & the 600 overkill just over 2000 fps & apparently the 500 nitro soft point deformed almost instantly post impact whereas the 600 Overkill run through 5.5" prior to expanding & retains most of its weight so if one intends to shoot an elephant the 577 & 600 soft points will do the job however,the smaller calibers soft point may not reach the vitals demonstrated in a video; testing soft points..Avi

Solids for me only. Period.

quote:

Originally posted by TrademarkTexan:
I killed a bull last year with 300 gr TSX from a 375 H&H. The shot was a semi-frontal from elevation, so that point of aim was just above the eye.

He had 2 solids in his lungs, so this was not the first shot. Of course I would not recommend that, but in that instance it was what I had and it worked fine.

Met a Chap in camp that was on his third day of tracking a wounded bull after hitting it with an X bullet.
He never did find it.. Turned out to be quite an expensive F*&%k up.

Yea, soft points are adequate for hypothetical elephants but a stupid idea for real elephants!

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by TrademarkTexan:
I killed a bull last year with 300 gr TSX from a 375 H&H. The shot was a semi-frontal from elevation, so that point of aim was just above the eye.

He had 2 solids in his lungs, so this was not the first shot. Of course I would not recommend that, but in that instance it was what I had and it worked fine.

i am curious as to why you would be hunting elephants with a .375( or any other caliber for that matter) and only have 2 solids with you.

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

quote:

Originally posted by TrademarkTexan:
I killed a bull last year with 300 gr TSX from a 375 H&H. The shot was a semi-frontal from elevation, so that point of aim was just above the eye.

He had 2 solids in his lungs, so this was not the first shot. Of course I would not recommend that, but in that instance it was what I had and it worked fine.

i am curious as to why you would be hunting elephants with a .375( or any other caliber for that matter) and only have 2 solids with you.

Jerry -

First problem = .375 for Ele
Second problem = leaving camp with only 2 solids

I shot a large cow elephant - frontal between the eyes at 10 yds - with a 300 gr Failsafe fired at 2875 fps from a 375 H&H Ackley Improved.

The elephant dropped dead in her tracks and never twitched.

My PH at the time was saying that in his opinion failsafes, TSX bullets, and the like were fine for elephant.

My most recent PH stated that solids do not do enough damage on cape buffalo and that he does not recommend them anymore. He favored premium softs for buffalo, which open-up yet hold together enough for deep penetration - that is like TSXs, TBBCs, and failsafes.

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

quote:

Originally posted by TrademarkTexan:
I killed a bull last year with 300 gr TSX from a 375 H&H. The shot was a semi-frontal from elevation, so that point of aim was just above the eye.

He had 2 solids in his lungs, so this was not the first shot. Of course I would not recommend that, but in that instance it was what I had and it worked fine.

i am curious as to why you would be hunting elephants with a .375( or any other caliber for that matter) and only have 2 solids with you.

I did not intend to hunt Elephant, but there was leftover Tuskless quota that was offered. We were nearing the end of the hunt with Buff in the salt and hadn't seen any Elephant, so I had a mag full of softs looking for Warthog, etc. Late in the evening we spotted a herd across a valley, moving away.

We had discussed earlier that the game plan was to put two solids in the heart/lungs and let the herd move off, due to how aggressive the cow herds were in the area. We exited the truck and took off on a run parallel to the herd. As we were running I ejected the softs and loaded solids.

We caught the herd after about 5 miles of hard running, trotting. We topped a ridge and they were below us in a little valley. There was a big cow (we thought) that they had been watching as we paced them across the valley at the beginning, confirming no tusks and no calf. I shot twice in the chest, but it then turned and started up the hill towards us, leading the herd with it (not charging I don't think, that's just the direction it decided to go). PH said shoot again, and I did, the only good shot presented, and it dropped immediately. When I reloaded I noticed the cartridge I ejected had the mark I put on the soft cartridges.

As I said, not the way I would have chosen, but that's the way it happened.

Taking a tuskless bull is a rarity. I saw one in Chewore South in 2011 with a tuskless on quota. Unfortunately we had an issue with the game scout so I did not take him.

Congrats. In a confrontation you use what you have.

I hunted ele only once. So my not very experienced opinion is: for brain shot and following shots from behind only solids, for heart/lung shots softpoints are better. We've had ele with 5-6 solids (416 and 458) in heart/lung area and he ran like nothing happened. Only spinal shots stopped him. As it turned out heart and lungs were just pierced. No damage usual with softpoints. Next time I will use SP for heart/lung shot.

quote:

Originally posted by Roman BGH:
I hunted ele only once. So my not very experienced opinion is: for brain shot and following shots from behind only solids, for heart/lung shots softpoints are better. We've had ele with 5-6 solids (416 and 458) in heart/lung area and he ran like nothing happened. Only spinal shots stopped him. As it turned out heart and lungs were just pierced. No damage usual with softpoints. Next time I will use SP for heart/lung shot.

BAD idea.. Dont use SP on ele... something might go wrong and that desired side on shot might turn into a charging frontal...
No - better use a good FN solid like CEB, North Fork og the Barnes FN solids.. They work... Giving superior penetration and good tissuedestruction as well..

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Yea, soft points are adequate for hypothetical elephants but a stupid idea for real elephants!

465H&H

That about sums it up!

Roman BGH -

Virtually any and all heart/lung shot Ele will run 100-200 yards before dropping stone dead. Please stay with solids for all shots on Ele, especially H/L where the bullet needs to travel farther into the vitals.

quote:

Originally posted by Roman BGH:
I hunted ele only once. So my not very experienced opinion is: for brain shot and following shots from behind only solids, for heart/lung shots softpoints are better. We've had ele with 5-6 solids (416 and 458) in heart/lung area and he ran like nothing happened. Only spinal shots stopped him. As it turned out heart and lungs were just pierced. No damage usual with softpoints. Next time I will use SP for heart/lung shot.

so you approach the elephant with no round in the chamber?? then when you get there, you load to appropriate bullet?? and hope he doesn't suddenly change directions and require a different configuration of cartridge?? sounds like another candidate for a Darwin Award, guys

I would not even take the shot anywhere on a ELE with a soft point in any caliber. I have too much respect for them to do anything else. I like the effects of solids in large calibers. Big hole all the way through.Never fails as long as it's in the right spot. -Rob

buffalo, LionHunter, thanks for advises!

jdollar, keep hunting and maybe some day you will know very interesting hunting tips, including how to be able to choose cartridge before shooting, double rifles, etc.

quote:

Originally posted by Roman BGH:
buffalo, LionHunter, thanks for advises!

jdollar, keep hunting and maybe some day you will know very interesting hunting tips, including how to be able to choose cartridge before shooting, double rifles, etc.

jdollar is a hopeless idiot- he can never learn.He uses someone elses rifle when he hunts ele and is not sure that it will fire when he pulls the trigger.

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
I would not even take the shot anywhere on a ELE with a soft point in any caliber. I have too much respect for them to do anything else. I like the effects of solids in large calibers. Big hole all the way through.Never fails as long as it's in the right spot. -Rob

agree Rob... and with at FN solid from a 500 and upwards and a well placed heart shot - an ele wont go far.. With my 577 a BIG bodied bull (estimated him to 15000 ibs) went exactly 2 steps before falling over to a clean heart shot..

quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
I would not even take the shot anywhere on a ELE with a soft point in any caliber. I have too much respect for them to do anything else. I like the effects of solids in large calibers. Big hole all the way through.Never fails as long as it's in the right spot. -Rob

agree Rob... and with at FN solid from a 500 and upwards and a well placed heart shot - an ele wont go far.. With my 577 a BIG bodied bull (estimated him to 15000 ibs) went exactly 2 steps before falling over to a clean heart shot..

Both Rob and Buffalo are 100% spot on Correct!!!!!!!!

You see, I have exactly ZERO NOSTALGIA in my system, I do not have to take a brain shot on elephant to be satisfied. I will take the shot presented to me that I know I will be the most successful with, and that is not always a brain shot. I will take the brain shot if presented, but if not, then its the heart shot. On the elephant I have shot, only two of those were brain shots, one side, one frontal, both successful. My son shot a side brain shot on his elephant a month ago at 10 yards, very successful. All the rest were heart shots.......

Back in the early days before proper FN Solids were available to me, I used round nose solids, and they were very unimpressive on heart shots, drill tiny holes and do little damage. Yep, eventually killed what elephants I took... But nothing like these big bore flat nose solids that do a lot of damage on their passage through.

Last year I took a really good bull at 12 yards. I lined up for the brain, and then he suddenly busted us and took off running, I hit him through the right side, heart, and exited the left side of the bull with a 458 B&M running a 450 #13 Solid at 2225 fps. As you can see from this photo this is not a tiny hole in the heart.............. The bull went 30 yards and down for the count permanently........




This elephant heart was hit at extremely close range, 3 yards, with a 500 gr .500 caliber #13 Solid at 2400 fps, this elephant turned at the shot, and fell over..........




Of course, one would or should NEVER EVER go after elephant with anything but a proper solid.......... But if you find yourself in a serious pickle with an elephant while hunting something else, you use what you have, and better hope that it is a damn good one.......

M

I have never had any issue with solids on Buffalo, and recommend them with a .375 or 9.3x62 in case you get a head on or going away shot. Flat nose solids are best if they feed in your rifle, North Fork Cup Points are always the best of both worlds and negate the age old argument of softs vs. Solids. I settled on Cup Poins long ago as the best option but I still like to experiment with loads and bullets of various makes. I have not shot an elephant with the the cup point, don't know that I would except when left without a choice.

I used to have a soft in the chamber and solids underneath, that's been working for years with a lot of folks in Africa.

I know of a number of elephant that were killed cleanly with softs in a 460 Wby with heart shots, my dear friend George Hoffman killed more than a few elephants with his Wby and heart shots...I would take a heart shot with a monolithics HP on elephant with solids for backup.

Its and age old argument, and experts on both sides???

I've used my own Cup point turned brass solids on ELE with a .470NE and a 500a2 with tremendous penetration. Seems to work well on them. Gun goes bang, ELE runs off, falls over and dies, the celebration begins! I don't even bother with soft points anymore.they have their place but I prefer to bide my time and will pass on any shot that is iffy. I hate chasing down wounded game with a huge price tag at stake!-Rob

Long time ago,as elefant hunting in ethopia was still open,there was a story in a german hunting journal about a hunter,who used a .416 rem mag with 400 grain swift a-frames for a frontal brain shot. Did not reached the brain.No knock down effect.The Tusker was then shot by his PH with solids.

I can't imagine any reason other than surprise to use a soft of any kind for a brain shot on an elephant..I suppose if you were following a heard of buffao or tracking a Lion and all of the sudden a elephant came at you from nowhere ( it can happen ) and you had a soft up the snoot you would give it to him or her, what else could you do..Not a situation I would want to be in so I mostly just have a magazine full of cup points wherever I'm at in elephant, buffalo, hippo, country. If a Lion was to show up and angry I would try for a head shot.

All in all its a crap shoot!

Ray,

I brain shot an already killed tuskless with a 450gr .458" Northfork cup point to see how the penetration was. It was more than adequate for a frontal or side brain shot. I think it would be adequate on any shot at an elephant.

You don't give up much penetration with the cup points compared to the flat points, especially since the flat points usually rivet a bit, and the cup points seem to penetrate better than a 500gr Woodleigh solid.

I considered using a cup point on a cow as a first or second shot but chickened out.

I prefer my Woodleigh solid first, NF FN solid second and thereafter combo.

JPK