I know this has been beat around a bunch, but I still can't make up my mind. How about some opinions, please.



I sent in a deposit on a Searcy. Ray suggests that I get a .450/400 3" to compliment his .470.. some BS about trading depending on who is going hunting for what.. best of both worlds, he says... yeah! I'll see my rifle once about every ten years or probably have to buy it back in the classifieds or something. The .450/400 is more usefull for smaller game than the .470 I guess. Is it lighter and handier the way Butch builds it. It has the same action, I believe?



What about a caliber we seldom mention here. The .375 Flanged magnum. I'd imagine in a Searcy you could easily get a reliably extracted and/or ejected round at 2400 fps for a 300 grain bullet. That'll do.

Butch says he can build them at 9.5 pounds.. and after this year, I don't know that I'll ever hunt elephant again.. Now that's a lie and I know it.. I'm just fooing myself.. I may need the rifle for elephant, too. I'm weak.



Buying ammo, even though I reload is a consideration. Resale may someday be required to pay for an extra kidney or a good labrador or something. I guess that .500/.416 will be available for some time since European folks are building rifles in that caliber.. it's probably hard to find though, as is .450/400 or even .450 Nitro... What I guess I'm saying is that I don't really want an obsolete round, and since Chapuis and Merkel, etc. aren't selling .450 caliber now, how long will it (or .450/400) be around. Kynoch has gone out of business once. A credit card and Cabelas number is all you need for .470, of course. But the darn rifles in .470 are heavy and I want something I WANT to carry. I've got a .375 flanged 2.5 that weighs 7 pounds.. It is a joy to tote and with a 270 grain bullet at 2000fps is perfect for about anything on this continent... and it carries like a Model 7 Remington (sorry to use that word on the forum.)



My .475 Nitro is 12 pounds and that is one reason I'll be selling it this fall. The other reason is that I've found someone... or he found me.. who wants it more than I do.



Recoil is always a factor, but I have always down-loaded for practice and bet I can find a load that'll regulate a 350 grain bullet at 1500 fps or so in the .470... and finally,



The engraving and more better lines of the next grade up from the PH model interest me. Has anyone seen the "whateverbutchcallsit" model. Is it worth the extra 3K. Remember I like pretty things... be it a wife, a daughter, a dog or rifle.



Make my choice easier. Pump my head full of meaningless facts and opinions. I know I don't need one of the things, but good sense doesn't factor into any decision I make.

Ernest,
there's only 3 choices for a double rifle

500 3.25
470
500/416

The 470 will have the best value, down the road, and be totally shootable...

the 500 will pack the best whallop

the 500/416 will like you make "bad" choices with a double, and shoot to the sight regulation (the 200 yarders, for instance)

if I had 10k, to plop down on a rifle, it would be the searcy, in 470, the PH model, 10#, and let's get shooting

jeffe

JudgeG,

I have one of Butch's field grade .470s. Lovely, functional rifle.

It is my understanding that the calibers available are those mentioned by Jeffe.

I would worry that the weight issue given your comments. I would think that the PH might be slightly lighter, but I would not want the rifle to be too much lighter when shooting full power loads.

Butch's 108 gr of IMR 4831 with a 500 gr slug is pretty stout ... somewhat more so than the Federal loading. I believe that Ray indicated that the Federal load might be 87 gr of RL-15 with a spacer (like a ear plug), and that it was about 100 fps slower than Butch's load. 100 fps makes a real difference in felt recoil.

At the other end of the spectrum, I have found that a projectile cast from a Ballisti-Cast #1431 FPGC mold (made to throw a 500 gr slug) propelled with XMR5744 in the 40-42 grain range runs 1500 fps. This regulates in my rifle and is very, very mild to shoot. As a bonus this bullet and ballistics kills deer very effectively.

Will be very interested in what you decide and how it goes.

JudgeG
I would go with a 450/400 or the 500/416. I would want the rifle to have 26"bbls and weigh 9 1/4 lbs.[The weight of my 450/400] I would have the rifle fited with QD scope mounts.
I would get the .411 bbls in 450/400 as there are more .411 bullets than .408.
This would be an excellent client rifle.

If weight were a problem, I'd go the .500/.416. New factory ammo available (I don't always want to have to brew up a box for a hunt), lots of tinkerability, and more of a scoped rifle caliber to me. You already have a .375, abeit smaller case. I do like the idea of 26" barrels as well.

.450 NE obsolete? When ape's bottoms turn chartreuse! Now lookahere, Judgee, folks were sayin' the same thing about the 500 NE for damned near its entire existance and now more of 'em are sellin' than ever. .450 Basic brass will be around as long as Sharps falling blocks and double rifles are built and the bullets will still be sold when we're heading to the stars lookin' for left-over dinos. Y'need to getcher a good .450. If yer goin' to spend the money for a higher lever model, then have Butch buildjer a good hammer gun. Anyone with taste knows that all proper sidebys have ears. Bytheby, when are yer gettin' a proper pith helmet?

Hmmpf!

JudgeG,



My Searcy field grade 470 weighed 11.25 lbs unloaded. I carried it on a cow elk hunt in north central NM and it was quite a workout. I was 46 at the time and in decent shape...finished the hunt with my 30 Gibbs! 26" barrels would make them way heavy! I'm not sure how much Butch will play with components and barrel contours to get to a certain weight. He told me not too long ago that the 500/416 was the most versatile double rifle cartridge on the market...also said it kicked more than the 470. My choice would be the 450/400 followed by the 500/416. Let us know what you decide!

Judge, I don't own a double but I've shot Searcys in 577 through 375 Flanged and a Kreigoff in 500/416. I'm having a falling block built on the 500/416 as a result of all that exposure. It's a real 250 yd round if you're set up to sight that far and kills like any other 400 gr 416. I doubt the ammo will be obsolete anytime soon. I bought brass from BELL through Huntington's but loaded ammo ought to be around for a while.

Mark me down for the 450/400 3" as well. It is arguably the most versatile cartridge available in a double rifle, and that includes everything from zebra, to elephant! They are light enough to carry for miles, and pennetrate well enough for brain shots on ele, from any angle. It will drive a solid all the way through a buffalo from end to end, and with soft points is damn near perfect for follow up 0n Lion!

The 500/416K comes close, but my pick would still be the 450/400 3"!

JudgeG



If you decide on the 470 NE you can pray on Ray's supply of brass, ammo and components. Free of charge



Second would be 450 NE, or 500/416.



Third 577NE



Fourth 9,3X74R



I would go for 26 inch barrels and NO scope. Will you chose toplevel or underlevel ?



Cheers

/ JOHAN

A few weeks ago at Camp Cooley several of us shot a 450/400 3" and a 3 1/4", a 500/416 and my 450 No2.
The 450.400's are by far and away the most pleasant to shoot. I thought the 500/416 kicked less than the 470's I have shot, but it did kick "faster" than the 400's.
I think a 450/400 [3" or 3 1/4"] with a scope in QD mounts would be the best allround big bore double for the "modern" man. Plenty of power for all game on this planet, very shootable, and with 300gr bullets a very good plains game rifle as well. My 400 3 1/4" has done very good on deer and pigs with 300gr. bullets. I have also taken 2 Alaskan Caribou and one Montana Black Bear with 400gr Woodleigh Softs. [With Iron Sights...my rifle is not YET fitted with a scope, I am seriously considering have it fitted with claw mounts]. I would just make sure that my rifle weighed no more than 9 and 1/4 lbs [without scope]. At this weight it would make a good elk, moose, and Alaskan bear rifle as well.

Ernest, there are 2 keys to your question:



RESALE and AMMO.



Both of those considerations demand a 470.



As for the engraving, I personally don't think it adds anything and you are unlikely to see that money back in resale. You get a lot more by upgrading the wood by $500.



Regarding rifle weight, if you are feeling poorly one day, just carry your .375.



As for letting Ray borrow the rifle.....I would sooner loan him my liver!

JudgeG,

I don't know squat about doubles, but after reading John Taylor's description of the .450/.400 rifles I figured I would own some one day.

I recommend re-reading Ol' Pondoro.

jim

Your original query regards the 375 flanged .... Why not consider the equivalent round in metric? 9.3X74R. widely found in all european circles, and within hares breadth of a 375 flanged (so sais Barnes in cortridges of the World).

I can tell you in a 9 pound rifle they are fun to shoot, adn in a 6 pound rifle they are no fun at all to shoot.
I use 9mm Makarov lead slugs for plinking, with 10 grains red dot for reduced loads, shoot them all day long...

Depends on what you want? the big DGR double or the smaller DGR-suitable but not DGR-only.

or go back to your original English approach with the 375 flanged, but I question whether ammor or brass is much available compared to the 9.3X74 round.

anyway, you have fun and good choices.