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Troubles with 405gr cast bullets in 458 Win Login/Join
 
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Picture of flntknp17
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Hello all,

I am relatively new to the bigger bores having only two (375 and recently a 458), but I am fairly experienced with reloading in general. I want to post this here because I think it will get a lot more traffic from people who know the answer I am looking for than it might otherwise get in the regular reloading area.

I went today to shoot some light 405gr cast loads for the 458 Win that I thought would be fun for plinking. They were loaded with Trail Boss powder (21gr) as instructed on the Hodgdon website. The first one went well. The subsequent 9 all keyholed wildly at both 25 and 50 yards. Anyone know why these aren't stable? What do I have to do? Do they need to be faster? Can't really get much more trailboss in that case and according to the S. Bell article in DGJ it won't help anyway.

Anyone know a good load I can use to get 1400-1600 fps with a 405gr cast (I have 290 of these bullets I got cheap and want to use them)? I know the Trail Boss load was only supposed to be about 1050fps......and it felt about like a 30-30 as far as recoil!

Thanks
 
Posts: 38 | Location: Iowa | Registered: 15 September 2005Reply With Quote
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Accurate's 5744 should be able to get you where you want to be. They have some data online for a 400 grain at 1900fps. If you want a little slower they have been more than helpful to me when I message them about load recommendations.
 
Posts: 238 | Location: Southern California | Registered: 22 November 2004Reply With Quote
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I use 32 grains of 4198 in a .45-70 with 405 cast for about 1500 fps. Heavy roll crimp required to get the powder to burn consistently, or seat heavily into the rifling.

dave
 
Posts: 1126 | Location: Eastern Oregon | Registered: 02 December 2007Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by ssdave:
I use 32 grains of 4198 in a .45-70 with 405 cast for about 1500 fps. Heavy roll crimp required to get the powder to burn consistently, or seat heavily into the rifling.

dave


Thanks! I have some 4198 on hand. Could a person use wadding to take up the case volume and prevent slow ignition? Just curious.

Matt
 
Posts: 38 | Location: Iowa | Registered: 15 September 2005Reply With Quote
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I'm using 67 grs. of IMR 4064 on 405 gr. Remington jacketed soft nose in .458 Win for 1900 fps as a plinker. It's a slightly compressed load and works well.
 
Posts: 11729 | Location: Florida | Registered: 25 October 2006Reply With Quote
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make sure that the cast bullet fill the throat to get best accuracy and to reduce leading. one of the way the check this the bullet will just slide in to a fired but unsized case. fit is king of good cast loads Clint
 
Posts: 390 | Location: out side lansing mi | Registered: 28 December 2007Reply With Quote
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I use 26 grains of SR4759 with dacron filler under the Lyman 405 grain cast bullet in my Ruger #1. It's a mild load that's very accurate.
 
Posts: 388 | Location: NW Oregon | Registered: 13 November 2005Reply With Quote
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Try linotype metal for your bullets. Modern rifling is shallower and requires a harder alloy. Your bullets are probably not engraving properly and thats why they are keyholing. -Rob


Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012
Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise!
 
Posts: 6314 | Location: Las Vegas,NV | Registered: 10 January 2001Reply With Quote
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I haven't had any problem with uneven ignition, the 4198 seems to burn okay at the 32 grain level. Could use Pufflon over the powder or some cotton wadding if you wanted, but I haven't found it necessary. I've shot that load out to 800 yards with good accuracy. It will hit 24 inches at 600 yards out of a Browning BPCR rifle.

dave

quote:
Originally posted by flntknp17:
quote:
Originally posted by ssdave:
I use 32 grains of 4198 in a .45-70 with 405 cast for about 1500 fps. Heavy roll crimp required to get the powder to burn consistently, or seat heavily into the rifling.

dave


Thanks! I have some 4198 on hand. Could a person use wadding to take up the case volume and prevent slow ignition? Just curious.

Matt
 
Posts: 1126 | Location: Eastern Oregon | Registered: 02 December 2007Reply With Quote
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I forgot to add, that I use about 30 gr of 2400 and a dacron filler.-Rob


Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012
Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise!
 
Posts: 6314 | Location: Las Vegas,NV | Registered: 10 January 2001Reply With Quote
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OK, here is an update. I tried the same bullets with 50 grains of 4198 and got the same dismal bullet flight. I then tried seating them out further in the hope that I might get a better gas seal with the cast bullet.......still not even minute-of-trashcan lid! I got some much harder bullets of the same style (linotype) and these at least fly straight (no tumbling), but are still horribly inaccurate. They shoot about an 18" group at 50 yards out of a clean barrel. Its not the gun, because jacketed bullets shoot ragged holes on the same target during the same range session. Maybe the cast bullet idea just isn't gonna fly with this gun?? I sure hope I can make it work!

Matt
 
Posts: 38 | Location: Iowa | Registered: 15 September 2005Reply With Quote
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Sounds like you could have some under sized bullets. What are they exactly? Brand, dia., etc.
 
Posts: 1324 | Location: Oregon rain forests | Registered: 30 December 2007Reply With Quote
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A cast bullet doing an Evil Knievel across a SAAMI spec 458 Win throat/freebore certainly wouldn't help matters.
 
Posts: 437 | Location: WY | Registered: 16 November 2004Reply With Quote
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Ok- First measure your bore. Drive a soft lead bullet down it, then Accurately mike the bullet. You must then find a bullet or mold exactly .001 over the size of the ball you miked. Now cast that bullet in linotype or find one that provides that dimension. Use the load I gave you and it will shoot.-Rob


Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012
Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise!
 
Posts: 6314 | Location: Las Vegas,NV | Registered: 10 January 2001Reply With Quote
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I will measure the bore. It is a stock Ruger and I have been using .459 Lasercast flat points. How much of them do I really need in the case? Can I safely seat them out to the OAL of a jacketed 500gr?

Thanks for all the help!

Matt
 
Posts: 38 | Location: Iowa | Registered: 15 September 2005Reply With Quote
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flntknp17 - I had the same problem with my .458.

I is really a quandry and I still don't have all the answers.

My rifle shoots 500 gr Hornady softs and solid very well. Basicly it will shoot as well as I can while holding onto the beast. I've put 3 or 4 into an inch at 100 hundred a couple of times but usually it's a little bigger again it's the shooter not the rifle. I might add that it weighs only a little over eight pounds so I don't mind admitting that the recoil dose have an effect on my shooting.

I wanted to try some hard cast bullets one time so a friend of mine who makes and sells hard cast bullets at gun shows and has about a million moulds( not really but he dose have hundreds) gave me several sample packs to try out. The bullets ranged anywhere from 500 gr up to 560gr.

I tryied them all but They shot really bad like yours maybe barley on the papper at 100.

I tried some 400 gr. from another friends mould and they did'nt shoot ether.

I was of the mind that the bullets (and others said as much also)were stripping on the lands but still I had my doubts.

Finnally My friend and I checked the rifling. It turned out to be 1 in 22.

I can't tell you why it shoots a 500 gr. jacketed bullet and not a cast but thats the way it was.

Well my friend said lets try one more thing and then give up. It is what it is. He had some 350 gr. gas checked bullets he had a mould for. I loaded some up and at 2300 FPS they shot like a varment rifle. There go'es the stripping on the lands theory. Anyway I just went back to the Hornady jacked and called it good. Someday I might play around with these 350gr. bullets again when I have more time.


DRSS
NRA life
AK Master Guide 124
 
Posts: 1562 | Location: Alaska | Registered: 05 February 2006Reply With Quote
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While this suggestion may not be the answer to your accuracy problem with those bullets, try 38 grns. of AA5744 with a mag. primer. This should give you around 1700 fps. It only fills about 1/2 the case capacity, but no filler is needed with this powder.
 
Posts: 135 | Location: Colorado Mtns. | Registered: 07 November 2004Reply With Quote
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I'll pitch in here a bit: I have a Whitworth .458 and they have shallow rifling. I tried a commericial 405 cast a few years ago with the same miserable performance. I recently bought some Glenhill cast 425 grain gas checked sized .459 and 12.5 BHN. I shoot them with 53 grains of Varget and a Dacron filler, CCI 250 and they shoot very well, cloverleaf at 75 yards and about 1.5" at a hundred. I do seat them out about as long as the magazine box can hold. 3.255" OAL for me. I think that one of the secrets is the 12.5 BHN so that they can bump up in the long throat of the 458's.
Best regards,
dmw


"The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights."
~George Washington - 1789
 
Posts: 2135 | Location: Where God breathes life into the Amber Waves of Grain and owns the cattle on a thousand hills. | Registered: 20 August 2002Reply With Quote
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There is hard cast and then there is Linotype. Use Linotype! Real Linotype, not another alloy! The bullets for my 45-70 are flat base style poured from some some 405 gr Lee Molds, and lubed with SPG. I have a Marlin 45-70 with the microgroove rifling and a .458 win mag Ruger that shoot .459 ) as cast, not sized) Linotype bullets into tiny little cloverleaf groups at 100yrds. The Marlin microgroove rifling is notorious for being problematic with cast bullets. I also load the bullets about .030 off the lands. Linotype bullets have worked for me in every modern Rifle I've ever tried, including .500 NE doubles and even .50BMG's. Try it!-Rob


Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012
Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise!
 
Posts: 6314 | Location: Las Vegas,NV | Registered: 10 January 2001Reply With Quote
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Another short pitch in: Robgunbuilder's instructions should work well. Hard bullet, Linotype( 22 BHN or so) sized +1 over actual bore size, etc.
However in the world of cast there seems to be multiple solutions in a rifle. The bullet I am using in a shallow rifle is not hard at all. It is 12.5 BHN sized .459 which I assume is +1. I am guessing that that whatever it is, it bumps up in the throat and seals the bore, takes the rifling at somewhere near the right speed for all this to work. I will also say it was only the second load I tried so I am lucky when it comes to Cast in a 458 it appears. The first was seated to the crimp groove and 50 grains of Varget and it shot OK but seating it out and adding 3 grains of powder it shot very well. I gather that cast in one of these fellows, the 458, is a bit of a crap shoot so I am happy. I just recently ordered 300 more of them from Glenhill Bullets and intend on being happy with them for a while!
best regards,
dmw


"The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights."
~George Washington - 1789
 
Posts: 2135 | Location: Where God breathes life into the Amber Waves of Grain and owns the cattle on a thousand hills. | Registered: 20 August 2002Reply With Quote
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Hard bullets and speed. Some 458 guns won't shoot
worth a damn going slow with cast, as rifling is mainly
set for jacketed.And usually 1900 plus is needed.Ed


MZEE WA SIKU
 
Posts: 27742 | Registered: 03 February 2003Reply With Quote
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Had considerable trouble with CZ .458's and cast bullets.

Found a) Needed gas check b) Needed to seat bullet out as far as the magaine would allow. The .458 has (deliberately) a very long throat and this is not the best for cast bullets, but can be overcome.

Paper patch bullets work well but I really couldn't be bothered! Generally use South African copper plated plinking bullets - from ken Stuart, Frontier etc. Frontier at least exports to the USA. They make fair hog/deer loads as well.
 
Posts: 244 | Location: Zimbabwe/Sweden | Registered: 09 January 2006Reply With Quote
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My experiments tended to indicate that a Linotype bullet would be stable literally at any velocity short of 3000 fps. My theory is that with shallow rifling its easy for a lead bullet once it begins to rotate rapidly to strip or partially ride over the grooves. This causes loss of concentricity and once out of the muzzel it will rapidly keyhole. By examining the grooves on softer alloy bullets under magnification, I could easily see this effect. I tried many different alloys and some would work while others didn't. Linotype which is at least Brinell 22 and can be made even harder, resists the "stripping" effect beautifully. I usually aim for 1700-2000 fps with Linotype cast bullets and have had good luck in everything from .25 to .700 caliber.
In old guns with deep rifling, Linotype does not work well, probably because its so hard it doesnt fill the grooves. For those guns I use a 1:10 tin:lead alloy or sometimes even a 1:20 alloy. Powder doesn't seem to matter anywhere as much as selecting the right alloy for the rifling you are going to shoot.
A week ago 470Shooter visited me in LV and we made some Linotype bullets for his .500NE double. I used 45 gr of XMP 5744 no filler and a Linotype 570gr bullet. Viola!- Perfect regulation at 50 yrds with two bullets 1" apart!
Same load regulated in my Merkel .500NE. Great load and about 1/2 the recoil of a typical .500NE full house round. Linotype flat works!-Rob


Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012
Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise!
 
Posts: 6314 | Location: Las Vegas,NV | Registered: 10 January 2001Reply With Quote
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EXCELLENT discovery! I will have to try that in my Merkel 500.

Thanks Rob


NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003

Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow
 
Posts: 3465 | Location: In the Shadow of Griffin&Howe | Registered: 24 November 2007Reply With Quote
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well, I finally got the rifle to shoot well with cast bullets. I think the main issue was that it likes the bullet seated out farther than the crimping groove on the bullet would suggest you should. I tried 10 each of 23gr Trailboss and 42gr Varget (with a filler) today and both shot much better than before. I seated the bullets WAY out to replicate the COAL of a 500gr jacketed bullet and this seems to have helped. All ten of the Varget loads grouped into about 2" at 50yds with no signs of bullet instability. Eight of the 10 Trailboss loads shot well, but two still showed signs of instability........still its better than before!

Now the trouble is that all these shot about 2ft high and I need a new front sight to match my rear peep! Its always something.

Matt
 
Posts: 38 | Location: Iowa | Registered: 15 September 2005Reply With Quote
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