Fred Barnes's development back in the old days, somewhere between 1932 and 1974?

They went up to the 505 Barnes Supreme.

Does anyone know when these things actually came about? Any old gun rag references to them?

In all these years of piddling around with guns, the only references I have seen to them are in P. O. Ackley or Frank Barnes (Cartridges of the World ... no relation I reckon), and these references are pretty sketchy.

------------------
RAB

No BS history?

------------------
RAB

The only other source of mention I can find is the Donelly manual of cartridge conversions. Little historical info there.

------------------
RAB

Have I stumped the world, or just too boring a topic to deserve a reply?

------------------
RAB

I loaned out my wildcat book. That's my excuse.

I do recall the Barnes QT line and I just looked at the 6.5 by Barnes. It had a 200 gr bullet up to about 2600 fps.

That was just before chronographs were common.

I've been lookin' since you first posted but came up with nothing you probably don't already have. I'm goin' through old magazine articles now ....

Don and Nick,
Barnes QT line of cartridges? That's a new one for me. Thanks for any leads if anyone comes up with anything. I have an idea that the Barnes Supreme line had its flash in the pan in the 1950's then got lost in the Weatherby and Winchester developments. Everything new was old even back then.

Trolling for BS (Barnes Supreme) history.

------------------
RAB

The 6.5 Barnes QT is on page 369 of your "Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders" by P.O. Ackley. I recall an ad in the Rifleman by Barnes for the cartridges. A article claimed better effect on game due to the spinning of the bullet doing cutting.

I wrote a letter to the American Rifleman at the time saying that at long range the bullet might turn twice in a 12" thick animal!

Barnes could do this because he made bullets. I brought this up here as a topic and it was dismissed and not a lot of interest was generated. Bill Davis wrote a article for The Rifleman and pointed out that the spinning engery in a bullet is very slight compared to the forward energy.

There were other lines of cartridges like the K line from Lysle Kilbourn, CCC with Huttons Rifle Ranch, The PMVF line (later Weatherby), Ackley, Mashburn, Atkinson and Marquart and long before them Newton. Also there were European Cartridges but maybe they were the product of a gun maker or a munition mfg.

The big thing going on in the first part of the 20th century was a search for decent accuracy. Lot's of case shapes were tried and claims were made. In the end it was not the cartridges at all and not the rifles either. We had some of the best barrels ever then by Buhmiller, Sukale and in .22 RF by Erick Johnson. It was the jacketed bullets. When Biehler and Aistles developed the sizing up principle of bullet making for thier custom benchrest bullet making dies things got a lot better.

The Sierra Bullet company and the .222 Rem came along at this exact time (1949).

This was the last significant development in cartridges.

Don,
I guess that means that the 6.5 Barnes QT (Quick Twist?) had a 1 in 6" twist.

Since I don't pay much attention to anything under .375 caliber, I overlooked that one. Thanks for pointing it out. If you find a date/year associated with these shenannigans, please let me know. Thanks.

------------------
RAB

The 6.5 Barnes QT was first made in 1946 with a 6 1/4" twist. The load was 60 gr of .50 cal machine gun powder giving the 200 gr bullet 2650 fps. Later bbls had a 5 1/2 twist.

Thanks, Don. That was the post WW II gun boom, eh? Has anyone heard of the dates that the 416 Barnes Supreme, 450 Barnes Supreme, and 505 Barnes Supreme came out?

------------------
RAB

My point about the bullets is worth considering. Harvey Donaldson made a great effort to find a ideal cartridge for benchrest accuracy in the .224" bore. He settled on the .219 Donaldson Wasp which looks a lot like a PPC cartridge.

How he got this close is hard to imagine as the bullets that he was shooting were just not half as good as plain production bullets today. Barnes at least had a commercial interest as he could make very heavy bullets that others did not make.

There was so much necking and blowing out in search of the perfect cartridge when in fact that the particular cartridge itself was not nearly as important as the perfect bullet.

Don,
Agree with the importance of the bullet in any accuracy equation. Jacketed lead bullets sized up, eh? Better concentricity and uniformity all around, bottom line?

The GS Custom monometal copper bullets with driving bands may be variations on old themes, but coupled with the CAD/CAM techniques used to make them produce an excellent product at reasonable cost. A pretty big step forward in summary. IMHO.

Tungsten powder cores? We shall see ...

Still no dates yet y'all? When were the Barnes Supreme cartridges (416, 450, 505) born?

------------------
RAB

What's the rule on lending books out. That you never get them back? You should get a copy of Wolfe's "Wildcat Cartridges" I am trying to get mine back.

The bullet is what counts and there have been small improvements with the Nosler Partitions and maybe more so with the Swift which is really a copy of Parker Ackleys design.

The monolitic bullet, as GS calls them, of pure copper may be the cutting edge. Like Ackleys invention it has to be done right to succeed. The X bullet's fouled but maybe the (XLC) coated ones don't. Maybe the GS bullets won't foul either with those rings.

I fired a 180 gr Federal Partition out of my .300 H&H into water filled jugs at 20'. What was left of the bullet only weighed 113 grs! It's just my opinion but that load is not ideal for a DGR at close range. But I recovered a 140 gr out of a load from my 7mm mag. That was the 140 gr X bullet. It only expanded to about .475" but it still weighed 140 grs! Now there is a DGR bullet for close range. Not only that but the Barnes X and GS bullets are lead free!

I think we all feel that we are very close to a big improvement in rifle bullets here.

Don,
I recall that I have been through the Wolfe book(s) on wildcats with no help on this obscure bit of trivia.

Anybody, some old timer with a recollection:
What year did Fred Barnes introduce his Barnes Supreme line of cartridges? 1950's?

------------------
RAB

Looks like I am going to rack up some posts with this question. How about the date of origin of the obsolete Barnes Supreme line of cartridges? Do I have to hire a medium and hold a seance to contact Fred Barnes? Clairvoyant anyone?

------------------
RAB

DaggaRon,
I sent email to folks who should be of help but I've not heard back. I do know that the Barnes Supreme line was a work in progress, with numerous dates ranging from the 50's into the eighties. I found a 1983 date for one of them, which surprised me. I have only the following list which may or may not be complete:
.288 Barnes Supreme, .333, .358, .375, .404,
.416, .450, .475 and .505.

If I get more, I'll post it pronto.

Nick,
Thanks. Maybe I won't have to get out the ouija board.

------------------
RAB

Moving it up: What year did the 416 Barnes Supreme happen, to be most specific? Anyone?

------------------
RAB

From the Reloading Bench website:

"Like many other factory cartridges, the .416 Remington Magnum is quite similar to a wildcat cartridge or two with earlier birthdates. One, the .416 Remington bears the a striking resemblance to the .416 Barnes Supreme, a wildcat introduced during the 1950's. Another quite similar in looks and performance is the 1970's vintage .416 Hoffman".

I am still awaiting a response as to the dates of release of the complete line. Will post when it arrives.

Baie dankie, Nick, I never checked that website before. You are most kind.
I found your reference at www.reloadbench.com
------------------
RAB

[This message has been edited by DaggaRon (edited 04-01-2002).]

All of the Barnes Supreme cartridges are listed in P.O Ackley's book "Handbook for shooters and Reloaders. Will have all the historical data there with them. They are all listed in the Cartridge conversion for Handloaders put out by Donnely. Tells you which page to find them on in the Ackley Book. I would not in any fashion trust Ackley's load Data on these cartridges.

------------------
AlleninAlaska

Allen,
I have been through those and have not gotten the years of introduction.

------------------
RAB

There's an article on the .450 Barnes Supreme on the Wildcat Cartridges page at www.aement.com.

HockeyPuck,
Gee Whiz! Thanks a bunch.

www.aement.com

Has a section on "Wildcat Cartridges" they are just getting going, analyzing an old collection used to write an article in 1947.

The first one they have started with is the 450 Barnes Supreme.

So, it would appear that the 450 BS, and likely everything from 375 to 450 BS existed prior to 1947! Maybe those down to 288 BS and up to 505 BS followed later?

Interesting how they were griping about not finding any history or dates either.

And how precious they regarded the single old brass case they used for measuring. I have a hundred of them formed from the original Barnes basic brass, still shiny, fired in my 416 BS and 450 BS.

That is enough BS for me right now. I will be watching www.aement.com to see what shows up.

Thanks all for any info.

------------------
RAB