The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores New 400 Whelen bullet from GSC, also, headspacing on M70 Extractor is NOT SO GREATGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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 GSC USA has delivered again. This bullet averaged 317.12 grains and 1.540" long of 10 I measured, and variance within their claims. This bullet is a custom fitting of a pre-existing .411/317-grain HV bullet of GSC. The inter-band shaft diameter was requested to be bumped up to match the .404 groove of my 400 Whelen barrels by Shilen. Whatever other changes were made, the bullet is still a "317-grainer." The band diameters are somewhere between .411" and .412", the exact diameter being "proprietary." Whatever. I am sure it will allow me to get Kinetic Energy equalling or exceeding the .375 H&H from the mighty midget 400 Whelen. High BC bullet shape. Low start pressure. A compressed load of fast powder will be needed. This bullet needs to be driven as fast as possible.  Now for my  My 400 Whelen Berry of 2013 has a .003" greater shoulder-neck-1 difference than the 400 Whelen Petrov of 2003. On the first fire-forming of Quality Cartridge brass I had two out of forty misfires. Both times the initial indentation of WLR primer looked good. Both times the primer ignited the load when the action was re-cocked and trigger pulled a second time. I have not had the same problem with fully fire-formed cases. The action is a Winchester M70 Classic Stainless from New Haven, CT. This suggests that the extractor is not an adequate headspacer, and the 400 Whelen shoulder is not totally useless. I noticed the same thing with my Ruger Hawkeye 400 Whelen Petrov. At first I thought the Ruger main spring was weak, the firing pin blow not adequate. Not so! Now I think that extractor headspacing on either of these CRF actions is just not adequate, for the relatively long for diameter 400 Whelen, which also has the usual and proper chamber-minimum length spec for plus tolerance of about 0.015" beyond maximum brass length spec. B&M gets away with this extractor head-spacing on the relative short-for-diameter, no-shoulder cartridges like the 50 B&M, and 50 B&M Super Short? How is this done? What is the tolerance between max brass length and minimum chamber spec? Is there a 90-degree instead of 45-degree case mouth chamfer in the chamber so the case mouth butts up to a firm stop in a short chamber? Case-mouth head-spacing instead of extractor head-spacing? Sum-buddy who know? | ||
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Reckon that would work in my .405 WCF?  NRA Life Benefactor Member, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center,Android Reloading Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/ | |||
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Some of the Win1895 lever action and 1885 High Wall rifles, like the Browning/Miroku 405 WCF rifles, have .413-grooved barrels. If you have a .411/.404 Shilen barrel on your .405 WCF it will work great. Having enough magazine room for the long pointy nose may be a problem though. Single-shot loading: No problem. I do believe the Ruger No. 1 rifles in 405 WCF would be perfect for this bullet. | |||
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45º case mouth chamfer. Strictly extractor head-spacing. The case length spec is 2.25" and Michael uses a 2.24" case trim length. Jim  "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Thanks RIP. I load .411 NF 300 gr solids and .411 Woodleigh 400 gr JSP and Solids in my Miroku Winchester 1895 and they shoot great. NRA Life Benefactor Member, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center,Android Reloading Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/ | |||
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Ah so, I figured as much on the 45-degree case mouth chamber chamfer, as per routine. The 90-degree "chamfer" was a joke.  Cartridge max and trim to 0.010" shorter is also routine. Minimum chamber length is still unknown. Top secret? It does not matter anyway if strictly extractor head-spacing is claimed, I reckon, but I think "strictly-extractor" headspacing is of minimal effectiveness in the 400 Whelen, whether in M70 or any CRF/Mauser-clawed action. | |||
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You just have to use more and faster powder to get pressures and velocities up. My "loose" .425"-grooved 404 Jeffery does great with .423-caliber bullets and non-compressed Varget or RL-15. Fast AND accurate. I cannot equal those top velocities with slower powders, even with heavy compression. | |||
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I understand the original trim to was the 2.25", Michael just changed it and I don't recollect why. Minimum chamber is somewhere beyond the 2.25" case length. Michael check with Brian for the PS spec for us a year ago or so and if I recollect correctly it was 0.350" for the 50 B&M and 500 MDM cartridges and something shorter for the 50 B&M SS. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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PS (free-bore) has nothing to do with headspacing, but minimum chamber length "... somewhere beyond 2.25" ..." does. Top Secret.  | |||
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Just thought I'd pass on what I recollected. Min chamber length we never asked.  Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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RIP...... Loose Extractor??? Thin rims on brass? ??? I don't know..... I tend to lean more to the mechanics of that rifle than the cartridge itself.... But, then I am not very mechanical anyway, I break more than I fix with these sort of things....... As you know I believe strongly in the extractor.
Pretty much just plain lazy about trimming brass! The only thing I have ever had any issues at all with either 50B&M or 50Super Short is brass getting a tad too long, hard to chamber. So I started trimming some years ago back to 2.240 and have yet to ever have an issue again. Sure, brass sometimes needs to be trimmed, but not nearly as often.... Lazy..... Basic brass new, always go to 2.240 from the beginning. If using in the 50, then it is good to go. If sizing down to any of the smaller calibers 9.3-.474 then I still have a trim a bit after the case is formed....... As for chamber length on the 50B&M, I reckon it is damn near right at 2.250, brass gets that long, or slightly more, I feel it, hence trimming back to 2.240. M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Ron I'm thinking not a sufficiently tight fit between the extractor claw and the rim. I seem to recollect differences between rim thickness in the different batches of brass that you've tested. Michael's situation is slightly different in that the B&Ms are built around Remington' RUM brass even though almost all of the rifles were originally chambered for the WSM or WSSM cartridges save the long action which were mostly 300 RUM. If memory serves me correctly the WSM/WSSM/RUM/SAUM brass were pretty darn consistent in both rim diameter and thickness. And it's not solely rim thickness then it may also involve case taper as the B&M cartridges have quite a bit more case taper than your 400 Whelen. Me, I would go with tighter extractor specifications. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Maybe, or I might just be MASHING Hell out of it to make it chamber...  http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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 You have been identified as 'manhandling' your shoulder weapons!  Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Ron, Forgot to mention - nice looking bullets! I look forward to reading your field performance results. Now back to the misfires... Re-looking at the information. Michael has a trim-to length that is 0.010" shorter than the chamber length (plus maybe/maybe not a skosh). You however are using a trim-to that is 0.015" shorter than the case length specification which is already approximately 0.015" shorter than the chamber length specification. So we have Michael at about -0.010" and you at about -0.030" length. Why not as a 'test', do your initial fire forming trim-to at -0.010" from chamber specification. Fireform the brass to identify if that eliminates the misfires. And then do your final trim-to with fully fire formed brass. Just a thought. Otherwise we're back to to much slop between the extractor and the rim thickness. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Jim and Michael, Thanks for the input, even if Michael is unable to get a look at a reamer drawing and read the spec length from boltface to case mouth of chamber. At least he is suggesting it might be +0.010" over trim-to-length, which would make it right at max brass length, or otherwise his max brass length = trim-to length = 2.240". I like the idea of trimming the Qual-Cart brass down to 0.010" less than my chamber length for fire-forming. Will do a trial and error, go and no-go, to get it "right close." Brass is bound to shorten a skosh when it is fired, as the shoulder sharpens and neck and shoulder blow out and spring back. My current chamber length from boltface to neck-2 is 2.509", which is 0.015" beyond max brass length of 2.494" (same as 30-06). Trim-to brass length is 2.484" which makes brass length 0.025" less than chamber length to neck-2. I could try fire-forming with brass right at 2.509" long, right up against the neck-2 of chamber, should be harmless with COW&PistolPowder fire-forming load, and save powder & bullets. I might retink my trim-to length to this: Max brass length 2.499" Trim-to brass length 2.499" for chamber length 2.509". Something like what B&M does, far as we know ...  Live and learn.  Yes, rim fit to extractor/boltface might be sloppier with the 30-06 rim of Qual-Cart 400 Whelen basic cylindrical brass, plus all the other variability possible with other brass. It is also smaller diameter, especially relative to length, short-fat B&M and long-skinny 400 Whelen. Certainly not like a 45ACP head spacing on case mouth. Maybe case taper factors too, as you say, but I might get a headache thinking about all of that ... Instead, just for fun, having never done it before, I will look up the 45 ACP chamber minimum versus cartridge maximum specs. | |||
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Case mouth headspacing of 45 ACP, from looking at CIP cartridge and chamber, and Dave Kiff/PTG reamer drawing, and RCBS cartridge drawing, all of which agree: Cartridge brass maximum length: 0.898" (-0.010" tolerance per CIP) Therefore, Cartridge brass minimum length: 0.888" Chamber minimum length: 0.898" (+0.005" tolerance per PTG) Therefore, chamber maximum length: 0.903", per PTG reamer length tolerance routine. Brass case mouth O.D. maximum: 0.473" Chamber case mouth diameter minimum: 0.474" +/- 0.0005" (per PTG) Case mouth chamfer of chamber: NONE. There is a 90-degree step-down to leade/throat diameter of .452" which also starts at a distance of 0.898" (+0.005" tolerance) from bolt face. So, most positive headspacing is with brass maximum length of .898" in a spec chamber length of .898", of minimum slop, for 0.000" difference. And only 0.001" difference in brass and chamber diameters at the case mouth, where it butts into the end of the chamber, where it steps down from .474" to .452" diameter, which is bullet diameter! Tight throat! Of course there is an allowable -0.010" difference between maximum and minimum brass length, and an allowable +0.005" difference between minimum and maximum chamber length. That would allow a headspace gap of 0.000" at tightest, to 0.015" at sloppiest, all things being within spec. A case mouth expansion of only 0.001" on firing to release the bullet is possible, but of course in practice is probably closer to 0.004" to 0.005", with brass as manufactured being less than maximum diameter, always. The 45-ACP head spaces on case mouth, hopefully not by bullet nose jammed into short, tight throat. | |||
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From the SAAMI website for the 45 Automatic/45 Automatic +P specifications: Cartridge: Max Case Length: 0.898 Allowable Deviation: -0.010 Chamber: Min Length: 0.898 Max Length: 0.920 Allowable Deviation: +0.012 Rim: Thickness: 0.049 Allowable Deviation: -0.010 So from this, the absolute worst case scenario – within allowable specifications – head spacing: Case Mouth: Case Length: -0.010 Rim Thickness: -0.010 Chamber Length: +0.012 Total All Deviations: 0.030 Rim: Rim Thickness: -0.010 Total Deviation: 0.010 It seems much easier to assure positive discharge of ammunition if staying within a maximum 0.010 deviation for the rim vs a potential maximum 0.030 deviation for the case. From the SAAMI website for the 35 Whelen specifications: Cartridge: Max Case Length: 2.494 Allowable Deviation: -0.020 Chamber: Min Length: 2.502 Allowable Deviation: +0.015 Rim: Thickness: 0.049 Allowable Deviation: -0.010 So from this, the absolute worst case scenario – within allowable specifications – head spacing: Case Mouth: Case Length: -0.020 Rim Thickness: -0.010 Chamber Length: +0.015 Total All Deviations: 0.045 Rim: Rim Thickness: -0.010 Total Deviation: 0.010 Once again it’s easier to assure positive discharge of ammunition if staying within a maximum 0.010 deviation for the rim vs a potential maximum 0.045 deviation for the case. Hopefully Quality Cartridge didn’t ‘thin the rim’ thickness to remove headstamp markings, if so the rim thickness could easily be greater than the allowable deviation which could result in sporadic misfires. And yes I’m aware that we don’t have a specification of ‘how closely’ the claw extractor must fit to the rim to assure positive feeding, firing, and extraction… But, the total ‘slack’; i.e., allowable manufacturing deviation for the cartridge case and rim, the chamber length, the seated primer depth below rim face, and the nominal space between the extractor and the case rim obviously cannot exceed to amount of firing pin protrusion from the bolt face. Fortunately for claw extractor headspacing the firing pin protrusion must only exceed the total ‘slack’ comprising the allowable rim deviation, the seated primer depth below the rim face, and the nominal space between the extractor and the case rim. Long but had to do some mental noodling… So that’s my 2¢ worth… Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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I have been shooting the .400 Whelen for about 40 years now, and the idea of headspacing on the extractor is one I never heard of before. My rifle's chamber dimensions are identical with Michael Petrov's, and there is more than enough shoulder to headspace on. All my new .400 Whelen brass is formed by expanding the neck to greater than .410" size and then sizing in the full length die until the case will chamber in the rifle with slight effort. I have never had a problem with misfires, either with fire forming loads or full loads. If this method does not appeal to you, then seating the bullet far enough out to engage the lands, while using a mild fire forming load, should hold the case tightly enough against the bolt face to prevent misfires. | |||
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xausa, The reference to head spacing off the extractor for the 400 Whelen was strictly as a fire forming alternative. That said, the 50 B&M is a shoulder less rimless case that does head spaces off the extractor vs off the case mouth. Much as the loaded 45 ACP head spaces off the extractor rather than the case mouth as the spec 'trim to length' of the case for reloading, and the case length of factory loaded ammunition are shorter than minimum chamber length specification. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Jim, Thanks for looking up the SAAMI specs of those cases. I forgot to check some of these things, like the 35 Whelen brass max is 2.494", and the chamber length minimum is 2.502", only +.008". That settles it for me. My 400 Whelen Berry of 2013 now has a new brass length: trim-to length: 2.500" maximum length: 2.501" chamber length: 2.509", only +.008" Also reviewing all the 45 ACP specs in your post and mine, I am enlightened to know that the 45 ACP is headspacing off the extractor, has to be, whenever the case mouth headspacing fails due to short brass and long chamber, even if all components are "in spec." The 45 ACP brass is semi-rimmed, afterall, with rim diameter of .0.480" and base diameter above the extractor groove of 0.476".  I also think there must be a rather minimum case-length to chamber-length difference in the 50 B&M. If there is slop in the extractor headspacing, there is another stop at the case mouth. 45 ACP: Primary headspace on case mouth, secondary headspace on extractor. 50 B&M: Primary headspace on extractor, secondary headspace on case mouth. 400 WB: Primary headspace on shoulder, secondary headspace on case mouth, tertiary headspace on extractor, and I won't sweat the third one, two's enough.  While COW&PP fire-forming is more economical, might do, I also like the idea of +2.500" brass length with reversed pistol bullet up against the lands and 50-55K psi pressure to fully sharpen the shoulder. First time, every time. For the fire-forming, I will leave the case mouth square and rough, no beveling externally, That will also jam nicely in the chamber neck for fire-forming. Then trim to 2.500" and smooth any rough edges, but aim to leave the external edge of casemouth square. Should be flawless, every time. | |||
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The 45 Auto headspaces on the mouth of the case, not the extractor. If a round is headspacing on the extractor then the case and/or the chamber are about .060 out of spec. You can see this by dismounting the slide and barrel, then place a case under the extractor(fully forward) and observe the gap between the breech face and the rear of the case. Install the barrel with a chambered case under the extractor and note the gap, with the round as far forward as it will go. The difference will be obvious. I have never handled a 50BM, but based on reading the above, it is headspacing on the case mouth, with up to .010 play. The 30-06 was considered by the military to be serviceable with .020 excess headspace. Thus the field gauge. When fire forming any rimless bottleneck case, if there is a crush fit on the headspace, then all will be right with the world. The small shoulder on the 400 does not form well in the sizing die with new brass, whether cylindrical or expanded. Backing the die off enough to make it hard to chamber will solve any misfire problems. Either that or use a Mauser action. (You can't fix stupid) Falls of Rough Ky University Our victory cry is FORK U! | |||
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The Rough One has spoken, and has cut to the quick. I blame him for getting me started on the 400 Whelen. He is still helping me along: All I need to do is back my die out enough to make the brass a tighter fit on first fire-forming. I am still going with 2.501" max brass length, trim to 2.500", for the 400 W-B, so all this ring-around-the-rosies has not been futile. Thanks roughone. I have some feed dummies and a couple of loaded rounds to drop by the shop sometime before you need them, for the .408 C-T. | |||
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Hi Roughone.... Regardless whether its a 1911 or control feed rifle, that claw extractor is holding the case, case cannot possibly go any further into the chamber than the extractor will allow it to go.... While in theory, nothing can actually heads space on the extractor... rather the extractor is controlling headspace by just how much it will allow the round into the chamber.... In a 1911, as in a control feed rifle, if the extractor is fitted proper, it will hold the cartridge alone against the bolt face, once chambered the round is even tighter, and snug up against the bolt face....
Yes.... But here is the good one RIP.... to prove this, mostly to myself, I took a number of 50 B&M Super Shorts, and fired them in a 50 B&M... That is a 1.650 case in a 2.25 chamber..... All of them fired, accuracy was crap, so much jump from case to bore..... But zero failures to fire..... Extractor............. Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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This has been a very productive thread. Thanks to all. RUM rims must be a good fit in WinM70.  | |||
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In a properly chambered 1911, there is gap of .040 -.060 between the extractor and the case rim when the round is fully seated. The gun is designed that way. (You can't fix stupid) Falls of Rough Ky University Our victory cry is FORK U! | |||
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I reckon so..... They have always worked........ I don't know where to go beyond that....... Again, I think something else is going on other than the simple fact of extractor and headspace, mechanical, firing pin, spring? Something, I don't know? Brian discovered something recently, I think he knew this already, but we had a couple of rifles that when you ran just dummies through the magazine it retained all rounds down, zero issues. However, when you put 3 down, close bolt, open and load rifle, FIRE THAT TOP ROUND, then drag the empty out, the "EJECTOR" was too short, and would not kick the empty out soon enough, causing more drag on the second round down, pulling it out of the magazine! Again, would not do it with unfired dummy rounds, but a fired empty case would not eject soon enough. Evidently somewhere in Winchesters procurement of "Ejectors" some were ever so slightly too short. Something one might never notice when shooting a smaller caliber in the same gun, but now we inject a big bore cartridge, with a heavy bullet up front, then that short ejector shows its effect. Very simple change out of a slightly longer ejector sorts the problem out easy and completely. Rifle was a 416 B&M going to Alaska for a bear guide. So it had to work. One of the rifles I actually shoot before sending out...... Sometimes simple things............ ???? Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Rusty, Do you have the firing pin protrusion specification handy? Thanks, Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Jim, I will dig this out tomorrow if the snow isn't too deep. There was an issue with a pair of articles in Handloader several years ago, one that claimed the case head spaced on the extractor, and another that clearly showed that the dimensions were such that the head space was on the case mouth. You would thing an editor would have caught this. Rusty (You can't fix stupid) Falls of Rough Ky University Our victory cry is FORK U! | |||
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From the design of the cartridge and chamber, the 45 ACP is obviously meant to headspace on the case mouth. Maximum brass length is 0.898" with a minus tolerance. Minimum chamber length is 0.898" with a plus tolerance. The end of the chamber is an abrupt wall, 90-degree step-down, no chamfer. It is like the stop for the belt on the .375 H&H. Headspacing on the extractor comes into play with extreme slop, short brass, long chamber.  Rusty, Here are the dummies for the .408 C-T. The mission if you decide to accept it is to try to get the FN solids to feed. The pointier ones already feed very well. They are both GSC bullets. The pointier ones were longer HV bullets that I shortened with a bastard file, so as to allow easy fit into the +4.000" box. They are therefore "Bastardfile Bullet Werkes" (BBW) hollowpoints:  If the GSC FN bullets are impossible to get to feed due to the Gibbs-diameter case causing the FN not to clear the box-to-feed-ramp transition line, don't waste any engineering time on it. I will save those bullets for the "400 Bald Eagle" based on the .338 Lapua case and Winchester M70. They will work there. | |||
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Thanks Rusty - totally at your convenience. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Why don't you measure the EXACT LENGTH of the chamber and fire form brass of that EXACT length? This is commonly done in cast boolit shooting. I never leave more than .005" between chamber and case mouth. .030" talked about is way too much | |||
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I plan to do just that for the 400 Whelen-B fire-forming, trimmed down from +2.6" to 2.509", thank you, then trim some more after fire-forming. There is only .025" difference between the "former" minimum brass and chamber minimum spec, not .030". These are my specs, I designed the reamer. So, I can change the brass specs to better match it now that I have been edumacated further. The latest NEW 400 Whelen-B maximum brass length is 2.509", trim-to 2.500". BUT, the main thing is not to screw the die in all the way for initial sizing of the cylindrical brass. FL size only after initial fire-forming has sharpened the shoulder, and go easy even then. Hey, the precision .408 Chey-Tac has a maximum brass length of 3.0400" and a minimum chamber length of 3.0550". Again, the common safety margin of 0.0150" from end of brass neck to end of chamber neck. Trim brass to minimum of 3.0300" and the slop in length is 0.025". Headspacing on shoulder requires no or minimal slop tolerance there, but brass stretches on firing, and might get tight on bullet release, raise pressure unpredictably, hence the built-in slop for mass production rifles and ammo of varying slop, and varying crud in chamber neck in possible field conditions, like hunting or battle. | |||
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TT @ 2.500" definitely makes better sense. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Jim, Firing pin protrusion is .25+-. The compressed f.p. spring is the stop. Variations in springs, such as aftermarket, will change the actual protrusion. However, this makes no practical difference since there is enough protrusion for any situation, such as a chamber deep enough and brass short to result in firing on the extractor. Rusty (You can't fix stupid) Falls of Rough Ky University Our victory cry is FORK U! | |||
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Thanks Rusty. Now I know an additional factor that I can check if I suddenly encounter misfires with my 45... Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores New 400 Whelen bullet from GSC, also, headspacing on M70 Extractor is NOT SO GREAT
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