The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores ACGG Raffle: 470 Nitro DoubleGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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The 2011 Raffle project for the American Custom Gunmakers Guild is a 470 Double based on a Searcy action. It is nice. Matt FISH!! Heed the words of Winston Smith in Orwell's 1984: "Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right." | ||
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I must buy a ticket this time. Thanks Matt. Cheers, Chris DRSS | |||
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Boy ... pretty rifle. But there is no way to tell from the rules how much you have to pay to cover taxes! Might well be a substantial investment even if you won the beautiful thing. Mike -------------- DRSS, Womper's Club, NRA Life Member/Charter Member NRA Golden Eagles ... Knifemaker, http://www.mstarling.com | |||
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Auction reference JudgeG ... just counting time 'til I am again finding balm in Gilead chilled out somewhere in the Selous. | |||
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Exactly. You do have to pay taxes on such a prize, but I've never seen withholding like this much less on an unstated amount! "We'll tell you later how we decide to value it and hence determine your tax liability." Yeah right. Not knowing how many thousands I might have to pay precludes my buying a ticket. LWD | |||
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Why on earth is there a 25% witholding for the Feds? Screw that.. USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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So- any reasonable speculations on what this rifle is worth? Matt FISH!! Heed the words of Winston Smith in Orwell's 1984: "Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right." | |||
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The answer to some of your questions is: The value of the gun will be assessed at fair market value. Fair market value could be assessed at anything between cost and a market sales price. Even though $15,000 could be a fair market price for this gun that number would include profit which may not have to be in a fair market value assessment. I suspect the gun would be valued between $6K-$15K for tax purposes. Remember this gun is partially "art" so market value is an interesting concept. As to why there is a 25% withholding for the Feds, that is quite easy. This gun will be considered income to the winner but as non cash income it is likely classified as a fringe benefit. Fringe benefits are either added to you regular wages and withholding is calculated at your regular withholding rate or a flat 25%. http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p15.pdf read from about page 12 on (took about 2 minutes to find this with Google and find the section in the IRS document) Since, ACGG is not your employer they will "withhold" 25%. Since, they have nothing to withhold from, you will have to pay them the 25% which they will then pay to the IRS. ACGG then issues you a 10-99 misc (or similar) at the end of the year showing say $8K income and $2K in taxes paid. You then file your tax returns as usual and if your actual net effective fed tax rate was actually lower than 25% which it likely is then the 25% payment would contributes to a refund or owing less taxes due depending on the situation of your overall return. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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If anybody didn't know, raffles are consider by the IRS as a form of gambling or gaming and therefore profits/benefits of a raffle are income. Yes, that technically means the Church raffle for a free round of golf at the local country club is reportable income. It is just way below the radar for the IRS to care. But a prize of this size they care about. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I don't want to blow the whistle with the IRS goons but several big name organizations have raffles for big ticket items and this 25% issue has never come up. jorge USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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It's inexcusable that they will not reveal the "value" up front. That tells me they're hiding something, specifically that they value it in the stratosphere and the tax liability may well exceed the resale value. If Leroy worked on it for 100 hours and would like to command $125/hr, even though no one in their right mind would pay him this in a free market, he just did $12.5k of taxable work for the winner. I've seen examples where raffle winners declined their prize because the tax liability exceeded used MARKET VALUE. I think the IRS gives way too much discretion to folks holding raffles to set values. The cost to produce or replace is wholey different from the market value(look at resale on 'custom' guns). I can hire a lady at the MN state fair to make a life-sized sculpture of my mother in butter and it will cost me many many thousands, but to everyone else on the planet the value is based soley on the going rate of rancid butter. My insurance company claims my house would cost $300k more to rebuild than it would sell for, even though the land/driveway, etc can't burn down. Why wouldn't I just buy a different one? In the fine print they also reserve the right to substitute another firearm of equal value for the prize! "Sorry, you thought you won a 470 DR, but we got ya' this here 224Wby instead. Don't be upset, we decided the value was the same!" I won't be buying a ticket if they're not up front! Rant off. bob DRSS "If we're not supposed to eat animals, why are they made out of meat?" "PS. To add a bit of Pappasonian philosophy: this single barrel stuff is just a passing fad. Bolt actions and single shots will fade away as did disco, the hula hoop, and bell-bottomed pants. Doubles will rule the world!" | |||
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*The ACGG reserves the right to substitute a firearm of equal quality and value. The ACGG reserves the right to change these rules as necessary to comply with laws and issues that arise. The ACGG reserves the right to cancel at any time, in which case its liability is limited to refund of ticket prices to participants. (This is a copy and paste from their web page). LOL! This is the strangest run auction I have ever seen in my life. Doubt I will be buying a ticket. My biggest fear is when I die my wife will sell my guns for what I told her they cost. | |||
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Which is what? MSRP? Expected sale price as a new gun? A LNIB used price since the first owner would be selling it?
Precisely.
So the withholding could be as little as $1500 or as much as $3750. Or less than half or more than twice as much as it could be. And then you're grappling with whatever basis they set for tax purposes.
Bingo.
 Count me out too. But everything Mike posted is right. LWD | |||
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I'm reminded of the story of the farmer whose mule died. Not knowing what to do with it, he posted flyers around town offering 500 tickets at $1 a piece to raffle it off. After selecting the winning ticket, the winner discovered the mule was in fact dead. "My God, when did that happen!" exclaimed the farmer, who then promptly refunded the winner his $1. It seems the farmer reserved "the right to cancel at any time, in which case liability is limited to refund of ticket prices to participants." Bob DRSS "If we're not supposed to eat animals, why are they made out of meat?" "PS. To add a bit of Pappasonian philosophy: this single barrel stuff is just a passing fad. Bolt actions and single shots will fade away as did disco, the hula hoop, and bell-bottomed pants. Doubles will rule the world!" | |||
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If you don't like it, perhaps not buying a raffle ticket is your best approach Lots of organizations don't abide by lots of rules...both big ones and little ones. Perhaps they don't know what value they will put on it yet because it is not completed yet...fair market value can be broadly interpreted. You can always assume worst case which is probably in the neighbor of $15k and then you can calculate your incremental tax rate and that is what your tax liability will actually be. I am sure this is really all a scam by ACGG to try an earn interest on the 25% withholding for the 10 or so days they actually are holding your money before forwarding it to the IRS...yes that is the evil plan. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I don't know if this is all just cover your ass stuff on their part, or if it's a new way of doing it. I don't think any past winners of ACGG raffles have been unhappy. I have seen a couple of the past rifles in person and they were incredible. I did wonder this before, about the value and taxes, as one rifle I think at the time had over 20k in engraving. My guess, it will be valued low initially. If after you have it in your possession you were to have it appraised again it might be much higher. Just a guess though. However, you all have given me enough pause that even though when I saw the thread this morning I was going to buy a ticket I'm going to hold off till seeing some answers. Red | |||
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Just a little legal CYA with nothing strange about it. This way if they go to the trouble of running the whole raffle and say, the gun is lost in a fire at the last minute, they haven't lost all the sunk administrative costs and can still have a drawing. If the DIDN'T have this quoted, statement....now that would be odd and make them suspect in my mind. | |||
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Actually, maybe they know the guild members all too well and they are not sure whether the gun will be done in 2011, 2012, or 2013  So that is why they are reserving the right to substitute  Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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BAHAHAHA!!!  You kill me! This post is right up there with the #1 thing you learned from AR | |||
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From what I understand, one of the reasons the annual raffle drawing was changed from their show in Reno to the Cody Museum in Wyoming was to avoid any potential legal issuses. Not sure, but that's what I've heard. I am pretty confident the ACGG would not knowingly do anything to skirt the law. The raffle gun DOES look like a sweet deal, even if the winner has to pay a couple grand in taxes. | |||
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I must wonder about the above approximation that guesses at or indicates a value of $15K. If I were estimating the probable value I would start from the base price of a Searcy DR Classic at $18K, then add $4K to $8k for engraving and $2K to $4K for custom wood. My estimate would range from $24K to $30K. If the base action were a Field Grade, that would lower the range by several $K. Bob Nisbet DRSS & 348 Lever Winchester Lover Temporarily Displaced Texan If there's no food on your plate when dinner is done, you didn't get enough to eat. | |||
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Thanks to all of you who have decided not to buy a ticket. More of a chance for me to win. | |||
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Bob, "Fair Market Value" does not necessarily mean the price it would sell for in a store or from the maker. For example, the guild members are foregoing profits on their work and the guild likely doesn't want to burden anyone with anymore tax liability than necessary so they may be able to legitimately report the value of the gun at cost. So if the gun is say normally $20K there might be $10k of profit between all the labor and material mark ups for all the artisans and suppliers involved. Remember shop rates for labor are often 2.0-2.5x of the actual cost of labor. Additionally, if a smith is not at 100% of capacity with other work that he can charge for in theory his labor cost working on the raffle gun is arguably zero because he has no opportunity cost. A $1000 blank at retail may only cost $600. All of the above items can be taken into account and it is not unusual in these types of raffles for the reported tax cost to be much much less than the "retail" price of the item. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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FMV is what the item is worth in a transaction between a willing buyer and a willing seller. It may have little or nothing to do with what the ACGG says the "value" may be. The ACGG has to set a value so that it can withhold some amount for tax. The winner may choose to report a lower value to the IRS; he should just be prepared to reasonably defend the valuation. ______________________________ "Truth is the daughter of time." Francis Bacon | |||
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I'd defend it as somebody scratched the surface all over! Red | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores ACGG Raffle: 470 Nitro Double
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