Over my lifetime I have "read" of the large dangerous game taking power of these two similar cartridges. Taylor writes rave reviews of the 450-400 and the 404, and most of the research I have done shows both to be more than capable of taking "any" game animal that walks planet earth. For the sake of research, I would like to get some comments on the "stand alone" performance of these two cartridges by those here that have actually used them to take game. I will shut up, listen, and learn. Thanks all! FT

The loading of the 404 has evolved over time. The loading should be taken into account. Not to say its a big deal, but the old 404 was milder. That alters the recoil vs rifle weight vs. performance equation.

There was a 3rd great 40- the King, the 416 Rigby. I would say, by reputation, mystique or power, the Rigby was the king of 40's. Strictly by the numbers the 404 was probably the No1.

There is a school of thought that the .40 cal 400 gr at 2400 fps load of the Rigby was best in class and that is why the 404 loading was boosted. I dont know the details, I think it was boosted up way back in time and that was probably really needed, but again more recently to get closer to the Rigby. Tne Rigby seems to set the mark for modern rounds like Remington 416 and Ruger 416.

Most of my reading suggest these three 40's are just about the optimum big game cartridges.

As to which works better, it probably based on who pulls the trigger rather than the head stamp on the brass. My Humble Opinion.

I guess we've grown to call those 40 calibers the "Sweet 400s". While each different, the one basic trait is a long 400 grain bullet that lends itself to great penetration.

I am one of those people who likes good penetration without having to endure sometimes brutal recoil. I think the 450/400 3inch (aka 400 Jeffery) and the 404 Jeffery fill that niche.

You can, if you feel the need of a recoil junky,
load the 404 Jeffery up to where it can kill on both ends of the rifle. Or buy a Ruger #1 450/400 3 inch. Light rifle+ big bullet=plenty sharp recoil!

Both rounds having been getting the job done for over a century and doing it well. Once again it's just what do you want? What makes you happy and meets your needs is the best rifle/round to have.

Bullet placement above all else!

No experience with the 450-400 NE but I do have a 404 Jeffery.

I may be a bit shaded in my views but think the 404 Jeffery is the best of the 40 cals. My reasoning is the 404 Jeffery is fully capable of pushing a 400 grain bullet at 2400+ fps, can be made into a slimer and trimmer rifle than the 416 Rigby, has more case capacity than a 416 Remington, etc...and now factory loaded ammon and components are readily available.

I used mine on a couple of Cape Buffalo and a few PG in Tanzania Dec. 2010, loaded to nominal 2400 fps, it works very well! The two Buffalo were shot 30 and 60 yards and PG 50 to 140 +/-yds. I used North Fork 380 grain Softs and only recovered one bullet on a Buff, perfectly mushroom at 355 grains.

The 404 Jeffery is a well balanced round, flexible, and very capable of handling both DG/PG. Yes, it does recoil more at 2400+/- fps vs traditional loadings but the performance is worth it in my view i.e. flatter shooting, more horsepower (5000 ft. lbs vs 4000 ft. lbs) is noticeable on game.

Planning on using it on Elephant in 2013.

My experience is statistically irrelevant, one buffalo, but in that case a 400 gr woodleigh driven to 2185 fps literally staggered the buffalo, a quick follow up woodleigh 400 solid put him down and out. I will be taking my 404 with me this summer.

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
Or buy a Ruger #1 450/400 3 inch. Light rifle+ big bullet=plenty sharp recoil!

Bullet placement above all else!

Rusty, I was looking at the 450/400 Ruger#1 as its a lot of gun for the money. Is the Tropical No.1 any lighter than a bolt action?? (really asking, I just don't know) I have heard on the doubles forum lots of folks talk about how sweet shooting the 450/400 is. If the Ruger is that much lighter, would adding a little weight to it make it better enough to warrent the work??

Thanks for your thoughts.

Slightly O.T., but since the .416 craze there have been plenty of them around, and for sure the .416 Rigby is one of the most popular chamberings for new safari rifles buyers looking for nostalgia and/or good performance.
What is the situation with the bullets for the .404 Jeffery? Many seem to make it in the 400r configuration but are there other weights availabe, too?

Performace aside, this would be the main reason for me to go .416 rather than .404.
The flipside of the coin is recoil and this is where the Jeffries certainly exel (OK, a .416 can be loaded down, too; but as standard the Jeffries are lighter in recoil). Of course the mentioned slimness of the design is in benefit of the Jeffries.

- Lars/Finland

quote:

Originally posted by Schauckis:
Slightly O.T., but since the .416 craze there have been plenty of them around, and for sure the .416 Rigby is one of the most popular chamberings for new safari rifles buyers looking for nostalgia and/or good performance.
What is the situation with the bullets for the .404 Jeffery? Many seem to make it in the 400r configuration but are there other weights availabe, too?

Performace aside, this would be the main reason for me to go .416 rather than .404.
The flipside of the coin is recoil and this is where the Jeffries certainly exel (OK, a .416 can be loaded down, too; but as standard the Jeffries are lighter in recoil). Of course the mentioned slimness of the design is in benefit of the Jeffries.

- Lars/Finland

As far as bullet choices for the 404 Jeffery, the following are what I know to be available in the U.S. currently.

Barnes: 400 grain TSX and Solids
Hornady: 400 grain DGX (Softs) and DGS (Solids)
North Fork: 340 grain (Softs), 380 grain Softs, Cup Point, and Flat Nosed Solids.
Swifts: not sure but possibly 400 grain?
Wooliegh: 400 grain, softs, solids?

Possibly someone knows of additional choices or more detail

Norma and Hornady have ammo availabe as well as brass. Not sure about RWS

I am not really sure there is any perfomance advantage of the 416 Rigby over the 404 Jeffery, unless you are talking 2600+ fps out of the Rigby....but that is no advanatage from my prospective.

Certainly, the 416 caliber has a wider choice of offerings in terms of bullet weight and choices, that would be the strongest argument for the 416....outside of that it boils down to choice of rifle (setting aside custom builds) and availability of chamberings.

Possibly some other benefits exist but not sure....

I own a 416 Rem and a 416 Rigby. Do not have an issue with either. In my case I had the Rem built from scratch and it fits me like a glove and have developed loads that shoot extremely well in any climate so it is my favorite.
All that being said along the lines of a 404J and the numerous fine 416's. I bought a Browning safari grade 458 WM a while back and began tinkering with it. Take a 450 Swift at 2270 FPS (Hot weather load) and you get about the same recoil as the 404's and 416 Rem.
The advantage is short bolt throw, max magazine capacity. Brass and bullets everywhere.
Downside is you have the load your own to get this performance. I have grown fond of this cartridge as it has been much maligned in years past.
If I find a nice 404J, I may trade the Rigby; not because it is better, just different

I had a CZ .404. Great gun. Used it to take a large bison bull. Worked great. I sold it and bought a .416 Rigby and sent the Rigby to AHR for a full makeover. Great gun. I have never owned a 450/400 but many here do and love them. I do own a .500/.416. If you are recoil sensitive, go with the .404 or the .450/400 and load them to traditional velocity. They will get the job done even at the more modest ballistics. If you want something with a little more "punch" go with the Rigby or the .500/.416.

Keep in mind the 416 Rigby built its well-deserved reputation on a 410 grain bullet at about 2250 fps (and often times closer to 2150). These are a middle of the road loadings for the 404 Jeffery.

I have two 416 Rigbys and they are fine rifles. I just received a 404 Jeffery that is utter perfection in my eyes. It is much trimmer and lighter than the 416s and equal in capabilities - given I don't load the 416s over about 2450 fps anyway. I haven't used the 404 on game yet, but I see no reason why it won't perform just as well as the 416 Rigby.

sfhr,
Ruger lists the Tropical in 450/400 3 inch at 7.75 pounds.

quote:

Possibly someone knows of additional choices or more detail

Norma and Hornady have ammo availabe as well as brass. Not sure about RWS

Midway advertise
Norma PH ammo with the 450gr soft and solid, Kynoch loaded with Woodleigh 400gr soft and solid,
Hornady loaded with their own 400gr DGS and DGX,
Cor@Bon loaded with Barnes soft and solid.

RWS do still produce 404 ammo but use Woodleigh bullets which they advertise as TM (soft) and VM (solid).

Not a bad range of factory ammo for the famous old war horse. Plenty of other cartridges around as good as and possibly better but this romantic light recoiling cartridge in a easy carry rifle just gets the job done without fuss.

Couldn't fault mine on good sized buffalo, never hesitated to get up close and personal and never gave it a thought that the old 404 wouldn't perform. Gets my vote.

quote:

Originally posted by ForrestB:

I just received a 404 Jeffery that is utter perfection in my eyes. It is much trimmer and lighter than the 416s and equal in capabilities - given I don't load the 416s over about 2450 fps anyway. I haven't used the 404 on game yet, but I see no reason why it won't perform just as well as the 416 Rigby.

This is exactly the reason why the 404 Jeffery is this best in the 40 caliber, IMHO. It has all the practical capability to of the larger Rigby but can be made into a rifle one can carry all day....and with the right set-up just balances nicely.

The world is just a better place with more 404 Jefferys around..

....wasnt the original loading for the 404 a 400 grain bullet at 2125 fps....was it a pretty good performer on large game?......maybe I should rephrase that....has anybody here taken large game with the 404 in its original loading?

I load my 404 to 2185 and use a 400 gr woodleigh. Worked fine on the buffalo.

Thanks Terry! Thats what I am looking for...proof positive!

Flat top;
Its like Yogi Berra said;
"In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they aren't......"

257X50; I dont know what I would do without your, and Yogi's wisdom to guide me!

quote:

This is exactly the reason why the 404 Jeffery is this best in the 40 caliber, IMHO. It has all the practical capability to of the larger Rigby but can be made into a rifle one can carry all day....and with the right set-up just balances nicely.

The world is just a better place with more 404 Jefferys around.. Wink

Setting aside my love of the Rigby for a minute, and accepting the above premise, what the heck do we need a 416Ruger for?