I just purchased a CZ 458 Lott. I got my first opportunity to shoot it this weekend. Much to my surprise, I thought the recoil was very mild.

I took the opportunity to review Saeed's recoil table in the FAQ section here on AR. Much to my surprise a 500NE supposedly has a mere 5.5% more recoil than the 458 Lott. I used to have a Heym 500NE. If you were to ask me, I believe the Heym's recoil was 2-3 times greater than the 458 Lott. Honestly, it was just too much for me.

I am wondering about this apparent difference. Are the Heym's known as big kickers? What else could possibly cause such a difference?

Thanks.

I wouldn't attribute it to weight because, despite how heavy the CZ is, the Heym double probably weighs the same or a little more. I would take a guess that the stock fits you better on the CZ than the Heym did. A stock that fits you well will help you control recoil better than one that doesn't fit so great.

I traded my Heym .470. Of all the doubles I have owned that was the most abusive to shoot. Far worse than any of the .500's I have shot. Obviously there was a stock design or configuration issue that did not agree with me.

The numbers alone don't even begin to tell the tale.

Rifles are vastly different in their recoil handling abilities.

A well-designed rifle is THE KEY to handling a lot of recoil energy.

I'll throw one out.....my 500 Jeff Heym bolt kicks LESS than any double above my 450/400. I had a Heym 450 and a K-gun in 500/416 and now have a Searcy in 450...my Heym 500 Jeff kicks less (apparent recoil of course) than those doubles mentioned. The 500 Jeff is loaded to 2300 fps with 535 gr bullets. Weight of the 500 is about 12# and the 450 is about 11.5#.
The 450 is 480 gr at about 2150 fps. Both rifles fit me perfectly.
All that is said, Larry, so that your 458 Lott recoil comparison doesn't surprise me at all.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

Once you get to a certain level of recoil, it is difficult for me to tell a lot of difference. A sub 8 lb 458 WM can be eye opening.
I suppose the heaviest recoiling guns I have are a CZ Lott and a 470 Heym 88. The 458 WM was until I added a little weight to it.
I believe that 470 may trump the Lott however I have not reloaded for it yet. My understanding is that factory fodder uses about 106 gr of powder where as you use RL 15 With a 15% reduction in charge weight and obtain the same velocity and reduced recoil. CZ'z have a thick butsock that may help distribute the impulse to the shoulder.
I do want to try a well fitting 500 NE some day.

quote:

Originally posted by Sevens:
I wouldn't attribute it to weight because, despite how heavy the CZ is, the Heym double probably weighs the same or a little more. I would take a guess that the stock fits you better on the CZ than the Heym did. A stock that fits you well will help you control recoil better than one that doesn't fit so great.

He is probably talking about Heym Magnum bolt gun in that caliber. It is notoriously heavy kicker matter of fact felt recoil was worse then that produced by early Mossberg 835 with 3,5inch turkey load!

.458 lotts are actually pleasant rifles to shoot when properly designed. The .500NE Heym double with the hard/thin butt plate is a nasty piece with heavy loads!Brings tears to the eyes, but at least it's accurate! I have a .600NE Heym bolt action which is in my book the reference standard for pain inflicting rifles. The Heym with the exact same introductory level load( 900gr at 2150fps) as I use in my .600overkill is terrifying to shoot! In the .600 ok custom gun, it's a plinker. I don't have too many good things to say about Heym.-Rob

I guess what I am hearing is that if I were to purchase a 500 NE from say Verney-Carron, it would likely kick a lot less than the Heym.

I guess it is kind of like how my 300 Win Mag by Ruger kicks a hell of a lot more than the same caliber made by Browning.

Thanks gentlemen.

One thing of note regarding my Heym double 470 is the lack of muzzle rise. That it said, it must be directing most of the recoil backwards. I did add a decelerator and a mercury tube to mine and it helped. That design may be there on purpose to allow you to get on target faster for a second shot.
That gun comes up to my should like it was custom made for me.

I think I am the only one I have read of that has had a problem with the fit of their Chapuis. I have no issue with a 458, or a 450/400, but my Chapuis 9.3 was a BRUTAL kicker. Got rid of it quickly, as nice as it was. Obviously something in the design that didn't suit me....

I don't even listen when people tell me how good or bad this or that gun kicks them. I have guns that I find virtually unshootable due to recoil, yet friends of mine are able to shoot them comfortably (a .375H&H Ruger #1 comes to mind here). Conversely, I find my Blaser R93 in .375, or my late lamented Ruger 77 Magnum .416 Rigby, very comfortable and easy-shooting, whereas the same friends cry like little girls when they touch off a round.

I must assume that gun fit is the key. Unfortunately, the only way that I can tell is by shooting the individual gun...no amount of measuring stocks or calculating angles seems to tell me anything about what to expect.

John

Rifle fit is everything. It was an education to be professionally measured and try a hard kicking rifle that was properly configured to my hight and build (5'8" and 11 Stone). It probably makes the stockmaker at Krieghoff cry to see what I have done to his finest walnut

I mostly use a very light 9,3...it is a joy to shoot.. I have used may a .303 that was far nastier. I also loved my M71 winchester as issued...but Dave Scoville from Rifle magazine swears they are the worst stocks fitted to a Winchester.

Make the rifle fir and at least 50% of the recoil goes away. I will also comment that if the rifle fits then you can shoot pretty well without reference to the sights out to 50m or so. As a training exercise we used to tape over Learner PH's sights at Rifa to get them used to the idea of snap shooting. If the rifle fitted then having no sights was no handicap at self defence distances.

Its The fit of the stock mine is the same way.
I felt for sure I would get more recoil then my 416 Rem. gave me. But it is a very mild recoil
I was shooting 500gr bullets at 2362fps that =
74ft lbs. Well I'm happy it is like that.

Its more than fit, its design and execution of the whole pkg!
What you want is a rifle that kicks straight back with no climb. You get this through a combination of weight distribution( not just total weight), stock design(particularly for cheek weld and Butt height and width), recoil pad selection muzzle brake design, stock fit and technique in holding and placing the gun. There is also the little tricks of knowing how to "roll with the recoil".-Rob

I have to dig up and re-post the videos of me shooting my AHR-built 600 Overkill for the very first time.

Even without the muzzle brake, the stock is designed and built so well that you will see that the recoil is completely manageable.

Of course it will mean again putting up with a shitload of ribbing about my pants falling down and shooting technique (and of course my favorite comment from Shootaway about "looking frightened") but at least the video shows how easy it is to handle 900 grains at over 2,100fps without a muzzle brake. Even 2,300 fps is manageable with the AHR stock.

Here is the video ...
First time out with the 600 Overkill

first shot is around 1,850fps, the second at 2,118fps and the third at 2,300 plus.


600OK first time out


Since then, many more rounds and much better shooting technique have lead to much easier handling and better recoil recovery.

Enjoy ...

That was great,Paul.You nicely handled that crazy recoil!

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
That was great,Paul.You nicely handled that crazy recoil!

Thanks George.

Have you ever hunted with that rifle?

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Have you ever hunted with that rifle?

Yup - took a nice Cape buffalo September 2009. Seach the hunting Reports forum for my write-up.

Thant must have been interesting.

I found the same result with my 600 OK. I left the brake on and loaded up some 900gr at 2,280 fps, grabbed it tightly, grit my teeth, and let one fly. It was quite anti-climatic. My 460 G&A is harder to handle than the 600 OK. In my experience, it is the velocity that creates the sensation of abusive recoil. Shoot a 600gr Woodleigh at 2,150 in my 505 Empire, and it's a cake walk. Load that same round to 2,400 fps in a 505 Gibbs, and it gets downright nasty.

PS: My 600 OK is just 9 1/2 lbs, so about 11 lbs scoped and loaded. It is now my dedicated Ele rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Thant must have been interesting.

Isn't Cape buffalo hunting ALWAYS interesting?

Evoshield! Check it out on the net. This company makes footbal stuff, etc. And an underarmor type shirt with a pocket on the shoulder. Into the pocket goes a "shield". The shield comes in a plastice envelope. Open the envelope and a chemical reaction begins to harden the pad. Place the rifle to your shoulder and let the pad harden to fit your body. I hang the rifle from the basement ceiling whie it ahrdens. This is a fairly hard piece of plastic, not a recoil absorber. It's purpose is to distribute the force over a larger area.

You aren't likely to wear it in the field, but it sure is nice at the range. I shoot 375 and 458 Lott, and do load development and testing for a few friends. Swear by it!

CCMDOC:

Good point.

Brice:

We have several of those Evoshield shirts. We use then every year when we go to Argentina for doves/ducks. We wear them on the dove hunt. Personally, I shoot 2,000 rounds a day for 3 days. I never even have a red spot or bruise on my shoulder. They are fantastic. My kids have them as well.

I once,and I do mean once, shot a 6 1/4lb TC Encore with a 416 Rigby barrel. Yes, your whole life dose flash in front of your eyes.

quote:

I used to have a Heym 500NE.

It is the big butt stock drop that hammers you on the typical double rifle.

I don't know whether it is on purpose or by accident but the Sabatti's look to have less drop.

quote:

I guess what I am hearing is that if I were to purchase a 500 NE from say Verney-Carron, it would likely kick a lot less than the Heym.

I wouldn't bet on it.