I'm getting built a 505 Gibbs improved necked down to 416 with a 26" barrel. The case will be shortened about 1/16" to allow crimp in cannelure of a woodleigh and still fit in the magazine. Any load suggestions would be helpfull. I was thinking to start with max 416 Weatherby loads. Should I use a filler and if so what sort? Thanks for any help.

I suggest you purchase the QuickLoad software and model loads before you start experimenting. Quickload can save you a lot of time and grief.

As for filler, I would avoid it. Filler has been known to ring barrels in the past. Instead, use a slower burning powder and use more of it to fill that giant case.

[BBS, I would be really interested to hear what kinds of velocities you will be getting from this cartridge when you finish your load developement work and what your loads consist of, what action have you used etc.

BBS,
What you are doing makes more sense to me than the 408 Chey-Tac. They are using a heavy-duty 505 Gibbs case necked down to .408 caliber. At least you will have the availability of the plethora of good bullets and barrels in the .416 caliber.

The 408 Chey-Tac folks have worked up loads with something like a 419 grain aerodynamic spitzer at 2900 fps. They are hitting targets out to 2000 meters or thereabouts.

Since your bore is bigger, any of their data would work in your gun with 400 grain bullets if you had brass that would stand the pressure, but your pressures will be less with the larger bore and slightly lighter bullets.

You can look up www.snipersparadise.com . They used to have articles about the 408 Chey-Tac. It is under the topic "ELR" on their homepage, right after "Articles."

As I recall, they were initially talking about powders like RL-25, Ram Shot Big Boy, VV 20N29, etc. I'll bet H50BMG would be a good powder to work up to a case full and not need fillers. Chey-Tac loads reduced 10% and worked up might be a good place to start, as would the 416 Weatherby loads, but you will need either the slowest powders or the use of filler with 416 Weatherby powders.

I too would eschew the fillers unless you just want to throttle the cartridge back to lighten the recoil in a very light "huntin' rifle," as Nickudu did with the 505 Gibbs. See his piece in Saeed's Reloading Pages, for what filler he used very successfully.

Are you building a maximum range target rifle or a portable hunting rifle? It will be a daisy either way!

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RAB

[This message has been edited by R. A. Berry (edited 12-04-2001).]

[This message has been edited by R. A. Berry (edited 12-04-2001).]

BBS,
I've been thinking of the same thing, and one in .338 cal too with a 300gn Match King. A 36-40" barrel is what I'm looking at.

I'm shooting a Ruger Mag rechambered to 416 Wby and would use one of these actions again. What action are you using and does someone already have a reamer for the 416/505? Have you figured out the case capacity yet.

Here is some stuff you may have already read, but here it is.

http://www.snipersparadise.com/ELR/CheyTac.htm

http://www.snipersparadise.com/ELR/408testing.htm

http://www.snipersparadise.com/ELR/408sen.htm

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Brent

Gday PC the action is a Bauska it's a Korean copy of a Mauser magnum, I also beleive they are no longer made.

RAB It's being built as a portable hunting rifle 12-13lb with scope. I'm expecting to get flat enough trajectory to be able to shoot out to 400yds. I was thinking filler because a friend said the slower powders wouldn't completely burn in a barrel only 26".

Big50 Action as mentioned above, I'm beginning to think that a longer barrel might have been better, but to big to hunt with. I got a friend in the USA to get a 505 improved reamer made by Dave Manson, without the neck so in the future I can use it to make any caliber I want. I had a look at the cheytac sight but couldn't find any load data.

BBS what other recomendations in regards to actions for this caliber?? could it be done on a cz550?. What velocities will be obtained with the .416/505 Gibbs. If you use those barnes xlc with the high bc of .546 you would have a pretty flat shooter. What velocities could be obtained with say the 340 grain woodlliegh protected points?

In regards to the 340pp I posted a question how they performed on game and did not get an answer. Can you comment on performance with this projectile?

Regards PC.

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[This message has been edited by PC (edited 12-07-2001).]

BBS,
The Bauska Brille Korean actions (BBK-02, BBK-01) have a slightly larger bolt diameter than the CZ 550 Magnum or BRNO ZKK 602.

You have made a good choice. When you go to opening up the bolt face for the Gibbs rim, you will need all the extra steel that you can get with the BBK's.

Mitch made one work for the 577 Tyrannosaur, a bigger case and rim than the Gibbs.

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DaggaRon
RAB

BBS,
I just measured my BBK-02 460 Wby bolt diameter and compared it to that of the CZ 550 Magnum 416 Rigby, Ruger 77 Magnum 416 Rigby, and a Winchester 70 Classic 470 Capstick:

BBK-02 Magnum Mauser: 0.725"
CZ 550 Magnum: 0.700"
Ruger 77 Magnum: 0.695"
Winchester 70 Classic Super Express: 0.690"

These are quick measurements with calipers that may not be exact, but it shows that the BBK action is better suited for the 505 Gibbs case.

But you knew that already, didn't you?

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DaggaRon
RAB

So RA. Berry is this a project that would or could be done on a cz550 action?? or is it not possible, it just sounds like a real flat shooting bigbore, and I could not afford one of those actions (Bauska) here in Aus. I want to do a project and the action I can afford is the CZ 550, 602 etc. The cartridge I have previously thought about is the .585 Nyatti, but I also like the idea of a .416 bigbore that shoots flatter and further than my rigby.

Regards PC.

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PC,

Greame Spraggon in Sydney brought in quite a few BBK actions a few years back.

I f doing a 416 on a 505 Gibbs case a couple things you might like to consider.

Firstly, Bertram brass does not exactly have a repuation for being the hardest brass about the place. Thus I think I would want to use the brass that is used for the 408 Chey-Tac. Not sure, but I think MAST/Bell make it.

If you have real soft brass you may well find that you can't get much more velocity than you would get with full loads in a 416 Rigby or Wby.

Mike

PC,
The 505 Gibbs rim is 0.635" as is the 585 Nyati rim, I do believe.

The 577 Tyrannosaur has a rim that is 0.688" by A-Square specs. It can be done on the BBK.

The CZ is big enough to do either the Nyati or the Gibbs, but not the Tyrannosaur. Nickudu has a 505 Gibs on a CZ.

I would feel more comfortable with the BBK-02, but it is not essential, for the Gibbs rim.

The BBK-02/BBK-01 and the CZ 550 Magnum actions are both in the $500 dollar ball park in the U.S.A. I think Olympic arms was importing the BBK's.

Strange thing with the BBK-02 is that it is a machined action, while the BBK-01 is investment cast. They are essentially the same action, but the BBK-02 came on the scene before the BBK-01. Go figure. I got my BBK-02 about 10 years ago. The BBK-01's have been offered just in the more recent past. Maybe for the last couple of years?

There must be a BBK historian out there who knows more than I have gleaned from the internet and my single BBK action experience.

The BBK-02 does have a 3-position safety as opposed to the 2-position safety of the CZ.

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DaggaRon
RAB

Mike375,
Good point about the brass. Anyone doing this wildcat ought to use the Chey-Tac brass, for performance with safety.

The old 505 Gibbs is a low pressure case. The Chey-Tac version is considerably beefed up.

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DaggaRon
RAB

Mike how are you,

I bought bertram brass for my .416 rigby, do you think that pressure signs will show earlier than in the eight norma cases I had previously loaded?.

Mike is it possible to buy a cz action new and not a whole rifle? who could I contact. And what are those BBK actions worth here in Australia?. I just might start making a few enquiries. I have spoken to Karls gunsmith (re .585 nyatti) and am just starting to get a few ideas, and when the rigby is completely finished I will start shopping for an action.

PC,

You would have to pick up a second hand CZ or BRNO. There are usually always BRNOs around in either 375 or 458.

Where abouts in Australia are you.

I think the BBK actions were about $900 but were very rough. Graeme Spraggon would probaly know of any rifles that were for sale on BBKs.

I think the Bertrams will be soft although if you load the Rigby to only 2400 f/s then they should be OK.

There seems to be quite a bit of a variation with Bertram brass. Sometime ago Briel Jackson did a test on a 300 Ultra in his Guns and Game and he used Remington and reformed 404 Jeffreys from both Bertram and Bell.

He found the Bell was way too soft but I think he got to within about 100 f/s of the Remington brass with the reformed Bertram 404s.

Personally, I think if you just want a real big banger the 585 Nyati has a lot going for it and can be done on a Mauser 98 which you can get real cheap to kick of a project. The other alternative on the Mauser 98 is the 500 Jeffrey.

The good thing about the 585 Nyati in a normal weight rifle is that even with real shit brass, you will probably give up before the brass gives up. Probably cases made of plastic would be OK

Mike

So where does one get this skookum brass? I'd thought 500 jeffrey necked down to 458 for the Alaskan Varminter, but figure heck, I should go for broke, 505 brass it is. Hmm, so if the 458 AV can push 500's 3000 fps, then that should mean 350's @ 3500 fps.

So, Mitch you don't think that I will get the velocity from the bertram cases that can be acheived out of the handfull of Norma cases I tried first up?. It would not bother me if I only got a couple of shots per case. I will replace them with Norma cases next time around if that's the case. I would like to load for 2600 fps or there abouts.

I wonder how Karl's .585 brass which I beleive is bertram is performing?. On hearing this I am probably leaning towards the Nyatti. I will definitely mount a 2.5 compact leupold on that one. I hope to get started around March. First up I'm just looking forward to getting the rigby back.

Mitch do you own a .585 or was it a .577? If so how is that going?

I am in Ballarat, Victoria.

Regards PC.

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[This message has been edited by PC (edited 12-08-2001).]

Can't name it a 416 Gibbs, least you get associated with the Gibbs line of cartridges made in the US for a number of years which were just 06's blown out and as far forward as you can blow one....would be very confusing and everybody would think you had a necked up blown out 30-06...for what that trivia is worth.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

PC,

Firstly I am not Mitch I am Mike. Are you sure you don't already have a 577 T Rex you have been shooting too much But Mitch does have a very accurate 577 T Rex.

Since you are in Victoria you are right where all this stuff is best done.

I would suggest you call Ross Waghorn on 0397622438 as a starting point. He will locate a Mauser 98 for you and a real good one probably wont set you back more than $300 or so. Would also be worth joining The Big Game Club as it is full of blokes that will have some knowledge on this sort of gear.

As to what I own, I went very close to a 500 Jefrey on a 98 but the reality is my neck and back are just too far gone for that stuff anymore and ears are not up to muzzle brakes. Also the Bertam brass is always a potential problem.

The difficulty in my opinion with the 500 Jeffrey and Bertrams is that if the brass is soft, then a 460 Wby would have more power and that would be depressing.

But as I said, a 585 with plastic cases would probably be OK.

Mike

Can someone explain to WHY soft brass will have LESS power? I assume that means the bullet is slower: so why does soft brass reduce the velocity of the bullet? Thanks, the_captn

captn,

If brass is too soft on the head of the case, then less than normal top loads will expand the case head.

For example, if you were to pull apart a 270 factory load, then anneal the case head and then reassemble the components, when you fired the shot you would open the primer pocket for sure and could even blow out the side of the case head.

With good hard brass and an accurate rifle, accuracy will usually drop off before you run into case problems but this not the case with soft brass.

Think of this way. Imagine that you "weakened" the boiler of a steam engine, then you could not run the same steam pressure and so the steam engine would have less power.

By the way, in my view and many other Australians, Winchester brass is far softer today than it was several years ago.

Mike

[This message has been edited by Mike375 (edited 12-08-2001).]

Mike sorry abou getting your name wrong.

So a Nyatti will fit into a mauser 98 action? Would that work better than a cz 550? Do you think that I could still get up to say 2400 fps with a 750 gr bullet out of bertram brass?.
I have never built a rifle up before so this forum has been excellent, thanks for your help.

PC

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If interested...The BBK actions are being produced by Olympic Arms' foundry as I understand that they purchased the tooling back from the Korean Lost Wax casting outfit. I believe the actions are priced around $400+ US$. I talked with someone there last year about the reported finish quality of these as the earlier ones required quite a bit of finish work to function smoothly) and they said that they had improved the finish quite a bit. I still haven't seen one as yet though. I'll see if I can remember the Olympic Arms URL as there is info there on these actions - now called something like "Ultra-Mag" actions I think.

Regards,
Jeff Pfeifer

Here's that site Jeff http://www.olyarms.com/images/bbkrs2.jpg

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Brent

Is the bolt diamter on the BBK-O1 actions .750 or .700???. I looked at the O'Arms website and wonder if I could get one into Australia??

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I'm back, been away for weekend.
PC: re actions it's the mag length that is a problem about 98mm usable for the BBK sorry not sure of the model as I bought the action from the same dealer who is doing the work and I just left it there after I bought it.
I have used the barnes in my friends 416 wby improved and he was getting 2750fps with 400grn and I even have a photo of a rabbit that I shot with one, by the look of the rabbit I think it expanded. They certainly expand well on kangaroos. I know my friend had used 410grn? woodleighs and was very impressed with them.

I would like to get 3000fps with 400grn but I think I might be dreaming, prob more like 2800-2900fps. If you already have a Rigby I wouldn't see much use in changing.

PC: Peter at Procal has a new BBK action (unsure of model) for about $1000.00AUD but that is in white so it needs cleaning up and blueing.

I should be getting the 416 late January hopefully will let you know the velocities then.

RAB: The truth is I didn't know the bolt face is bigger, but I was told the thread for the barrel in the action is larger than the weatherby and maybe the cz so was a little safer for high pressure.

Mike: I have been told that bertram brass has seen a few improvements since the early stuff and that the 505 stuff is meant to be OK with modern pressures, ie. 55000cup. Also I have been told that the mast/bell brass is also reasonably soft. That with the fact that bertram will cost me less I'm going to try it. As for the weatherby the norma brass my friend uses is soft. Re a 98 mauser in 505 or 585 a loaded round wouldn't fit in the mag even if the bolt face is big enough.I thought Ross did mainly stock work?

OK time for some measurements.
I have a mark x action the mag length is only about 86mm, the action cut out is 78mm long approx and the bolt is .700"
I have a bertram 585 and a 505 the rim size is .638" on both, the 505 just in front of the rim is .636" and the 585 is .654". The 505 is about 80mm long. Unfortinately the 585 I have is not fully formed-it's straight walled (no taper) and before anyone asks it's .630" inside the neck for at least .600" and the case is 3.360" long or just over 86mm and which yes makes the neck thickness about 010".

Atkinson: Sorry to have upset you, what do you think it should be called? How about a 416-05. Hmmm 416/30-06 could you even do it, could you get enough taper?

Any ideas anyone for a nice short name for a 416/505Gibbs shortened improved?

BBS,

Ross is a good starting point for PC and I will stick with my suggestion to phone Ross.

585 Nyati is 375 length and was designed to fit an altered Mauser 98

Bertram brass is supposed to have improved.

Norma brass has always been soft. However in the last few years Winchester is real soft. No longer are they cases with that purplish hue around the head. They look like they are made from brass door handles.

I am sure our American friends will disagree with comments on brass as I think they load lighter than we do.

Mike

BBS, Mast Tech. emailed me back and said the improved .505 case used in the Cheytac isn't available yet but still planned, they said to contact CheyTac you might get some direct for now. Mast listed the .505 brass at $95. a box too. Do let us know how the Bertram stuff works out.

Later
Brent

Big 50, I have 100 bertram cases for my .416 Rigby, loaded some up today but backed off three grains to what I had previuosly loaded in the few Norma cases I had on hand. I will agree with the fact that I think it felt softer in the dies than the norma cases did. As soon as I get my Rigby back from it's stock upgrade i'll tell you how these cases performed as well.

Hopefully Mike is right and it's improved and myself and friend whom (also bought 100 rigby cases)have not bought useless brass.

What barrel length are people putting on the Nyatti or what is optimum for this cartridge?

From all reports regarding recoil it will definitely be getting leupolds fail safe scope the 2.5X compact.

Mike I will give Ross a ring this week and pick his brains. I have spoken to Karls Gunsmith who completed his Nyatti, but it can't hurt to get as many opinions as possible.

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[This message has been edited by PC (edited 12-10-2001).]

Mike I didn't mean that Ross was no good it was that I had heard he only makes stocks. I stand corrected.

PC I would be interested in hearing what you think of the bertram brass.

Big 50 I will try the bertram brass first as it is $5.00AUD each as opposed to close to $10.00AUD for mast/bell. Thanks for the info.

BBS send your e-mail address to me and when I do some load work with the bertram brass i'll send you the results.

Regards PC

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