8 Bore rifle penetration

In Feb of 2011 I plan on returning to Africa to hunt Hippo, Buffalo and Ellie with my 8 Bore rifle. I have almost finalised my load using 11 Dram of black powder, this may increase up to 12 dram depending on my final grouping results on target. Yes I will be using black powder, I know I can’t fly with it but I plan on reloading in camp with a hand tool. I am using a 1,275 grain Fosberry style bullet, velocities have been a little disappointing, my target was 1,450 fps. I am now up to 1,280 fps so my goal has almost been reached.

The question in my mind is will I get sufficient penetration for a killing shot on an Ellie. I have taken Ellie (and Hippo and Buff) with my .470NE but I want to hunt as the old timers did with a heavy gauge Black powder double. I also want to be confident that the rifle will kill reasonable quickly without causing unnecessary suffering. So the big question in my mind is will I get adequate penetration for : a. A side lung shot on an Ellie and b. A Side brain shot.

After 1.5 hours with the help of Craig we had made the following test box using old scrap plywood. The first chamber is 36 inches long and then the second is approx 24 inches long. The plywood squares are 12 x 12 inches and pushed up tight and then held in place with a short piece of 2x4. The plywood all came of my old lumber heap, it is a mixture of 3/8, ½ and ¾ inch thick, some new some old and most wet and swollen. Now we are not claiming that this is the correct medium for an Ellie but it will give us a comparison.




The bench mark was established with my .470 NE:


500 grain Norma factory solid (Woodleigh bullet) at 2,066 fps penetration 42.5 inches


8 Bore 11 Dram ffg with 1275 hard lead bullet 1,386 fps penetrated 22.75 inches (Average of 2 rds)


Out of interest we then fired .470 SN
500 grain Woodleigh RN SP 2,136 fps gave 10.5 inches of penetration.
This is my standard load of 105 grains IMR 4831, foam wad with good crimp.

Next we fired my 9.3 x 74 R reloads.
286 gr Woodleigh solid (64 gr IMR 4831) penetrated 44 inches.
285 gr Lapua SN (2,394 fps) penetrated 20 inches

Now curious we tested my old standby:
.30-06 with 56 gr IMR 4350 and Serria 180 gr spitzer SN BT, 2,823 fps penetrated 22 inches.

So the big question for the 8 bore load; Hippo yes, Buff yes, Ellie side lung yes, Ellie side brain MAYBE yes and Ellie frontal brain NO.

Any one here got any first hand results from using an 8 Bore on Ellie?

Neat gun and interesting adventure.

Very interesting post. Good luck on your hunt. Beautiful pair of rifles too.

John, that sounds like an awesome trip!

Are you set on using black powder? 75 grains of Blue Dot gives me 1350fps in my 8 with a 1200 grain conical and recoil is mild, while 85gn gave 1500fps with a 1020gn ball.

I think you'll get plenty of penetration. You're obviously using a good alloy to have so little deformation after 4 feet of wet wood. I used a 4-bore with a 2000gn conical at a sedate 1125fps muzzle velocity for a lung shot and the bullet was under the hide on the far side looking almost brand new. I've got no experience on it, but that makes me think a side brain shot is certainly doable.

I'd love to hear more info on your gun.

Bob

Bob, I hear you, Blue Dot will, by all accounts give me less felt recoil and to be honest 12 Dram of ffg is close to my upper level of recoil tolerance. But that simply “simply wouldn’t be cricket” Difficult to explain but the heavy recoil and clouds of black smoke is all part of this rifle. This planned Bull Ellie may be my last Bull Ellie, I plan on having the hunt filmed so we really must have all the correct effects. This hunt will have been two years in the planning, it is still 6 months away and already I am getting very excited.

As you requested, more details on my rifle. You used a 4 bore, I’m impressed! After handling Cal’s at the SCI show I am not sure I could manage a 4 bore, but then I had a .600NE double on me last week, can’t be worse than that!

Rogers Rock 8 Bore, 26 inch barrels and 17 lb.


She is the top rifle


Bores are mint, Alexander Henry rifleing.


Rear sight is a good shallow V, I now have an excellent replacement large ivory bead fitted on front, so we are good to go.

Hi i just got done shooting my 8 bore Boswell today at a wet paper penetration box. Tom Armbrust and myself have done over 4 years of research and development with my 8 bore. WE have tested 3 brands of black. 3 diff smokeless powders and about 30 bullet types and many alloys of lead. we have an industry pressure gun and have tested all loads for PSI and velocity. we tested the 1450 conical at 1375fps went 32" in wet paper. the 416 today 400gn swift a frame did 19". Craig Bodington did not think an 8 would do a frontal brain shot and he would know, he did not know without testing and i am still not sure if it would. i am no expert on ellie but I know 100 years ago from accounts the 8 would do it. and I would love to try and prove it on a brain shot with the right load and bullet. My prob is i dont have the means unless i sold the 8 to do it, then i would not be able to prove it, u see my point. Ha, Ha, If u need any thing pm me or repost we should get together on this. My blue dot 875gn ball does 1650fps @ 12,000psi have had it to 1850fps still safe psi. my 1200gn conical with black did 1515fps @15000 psi near max psi that the gun should be pushed to. my smoke less load was 2000lbs less psi with same velocity. and allot less recoil. But I get your smoky reasons for black. I will be at the Vintagers 9-23-10 in md for the stopping event. Shoot straight and keep your powder dry! What powder are u using?

quote:

that simply “simply wouldn’t be cricket” Difficult to explain

I understand completely! I'M excited about your hunt and I'm not even going. I think it's excellent that you're going to put the ole girl through her paces in original style. Very classy. Thanks for the pictures too!

8gauge, I'd love to see your pressure data. These guns are irreplaceable treasures, so, lacking data I try to stay quite conservative with the practice loads I use 98% of the time. I've seen some in the DGJ, but it really is uncharted terriory to a large extent as there are so many variations. My two 8s have odd bores sizes, .827" and .875". Is the pressure barrel .835"? I think if loaded to their potential and with today's well cast bullets an 8 would be good for anything and then some.

John:
Good day and nice rifles!

I've published data for my 8s and 4 and your are welcome to what I have. Years ago I did a test on 6x6 blocks of spruce cut at my cabin and were still a bit green. At 1200 fps (about) I shot a .22 and a "big" 8-bore (actually at 7-bore at .875" but Graeme Wright gives me hell when I say "7"). The 8 was loaded with a 1620-grain conical and the .22 with a 40-grain bullet. Same velocity. The .22 penetrated between 2-3 inches and the 8 about 42" Not an exact measure of penetration and some of the blocks of spruce split. No doubt, however, an 8 will penetrate all you need for elephant. If it didn't the gunmakers of old and the hunters as well would have come up with something that would. All I have shot in the last 30 years have been wheel weights.

Good luck and keep me posted. Also, I'm working on a book on bore rifles. I'd love to include pics and specs of your bore rifles. When I get more settled, I will post on AR for contributions. I plan on at least a dozen 4s and 30-40 8s as well as smaller bore sizes and muzzle loaders as well.

Cheers,
Cal

Barrel is .835 with S.A.A.M.I. minimum chambers so to record highest psi possible, but remember that most of the pressure is in the chamber and that it falls off fast after that. u can also test with the band aid method @ any place down the bore. 875 is a brass cased gun and shot a much bigger bullet I have a bullet that was a factor mold for a greener with an .875 bore. my Boswell is 835 tom and sherm have done allot of testing with both methods. i have shot mine over 400 times. all loads are well under the originals. Like i said the black loads are well above my smokeless loads, smokeless is also much better for the stock , action and shooter also the abrasive effect on the bore with all that carbon and corrosive problems. The 1450gn in black is too much for me, even @ 1300fps as my gun is 16lbs I have seen some in the 20 lbs range. 1200 with black is shootable 8 to ten time in a day. i am using many old records and reloading charts from the 1880 and gun trials, for my data to duplicate the factory loads. 1654fps was the standard for the ball and around 1500 i think was the standard for 1100-1200 grain bullet. I would have to look back in my records My 1200gn black load with 10 dr swiss ffg was 14500psi @1451 fps from boswell and 1475 psi gun, brass case card and fiber wads. But case dimensions, wads ,primers and bearing surface on the bullet all affect psi greatly.. if your bore was on bigger side psi would go down some. if u look at the data from Double Gun on long shells short chambers this should be similar to a smaller bore with some psi change. that’s why I also keep them on the mild side, max working psi on most of these bore guns was in the 16 to 18 k range. Most of mine are in the 12 to 14 basically in shot gun range. Most of these were proofed as rifles At about 22k psi. thanks if u need anything pm or repost.

if the Elephant only knew, the style points alone would kill him.
Congrats on doing it the "old School" way.

Rich

Mr Hipwell.

You are a man of my heart

Shooting these ol` borerifles gives a thrill only the "invited" understand. I am sure you have read some early litterature regarding these borerifles, and the hunters that used them.
What blackpowder are you using?. I use Swiss 1.5Fg myself for my 10bore. Full 10 drams of Swiss pushes 900 bullet out with 1700+ Ft/sec.
Today I have backedup a little using 960 grain bullet instead and only 9 drams. That ballistic fits well for the sights. Haven`t yet measured the velocity.

These borerifles had their blessings and curses, but all in all its a rifle with brute, raw smashingpower, and I believe like yourself, it might not be a headshot for elephants, but one well placed shot in lung/heartregion should cripple any living creature here on the planet.

Good hunt

I Have had a couple of clients shoot elephants with large bore BP rifles and smooth bores.

I always recomend the heart shot- which is what the old timers used. We have tried a couple of Side brain shots when the animal has 'stopped' but not actually dropped yet...one worked (slug), one didn't (round ball). Lets just say on a big bull that load is marginal for a side brain at best. On a cow, no problem

John: Let's just say you have an enthusiastic group here at AR who will be cheering you on in your quest to take an elephant "properly" with that lovely gun. Please keep us apprised every step of the way.

Might I suggest you contact Jim Gefroh in Ft. Collins Colorado. He builds top shelf eight and four bore muzzleloaders and I believe he and his brother have hunted elephant (and other big stuff) with them.

http://gefrohbigbores.com/

FWIW....Baker much preferred the round ball over conicals for the bore rifles. Said they performed better in every way.

quote:

Originally posted by degoins:
FWIW....Baker much preferred the round ball over conicals for the bore rifles. Said they performed better in every way.

Sir Frederic Jackson, 1st Govenor of the Kenya colony, also preferred roundballs in his hammerless 8bore from his Greener dr.
Colonel Sanderson mentions in his book that actually many indian elephants had been flored with 5 dram of black and roundballs from a 12gauge. Roundballs are not to be underestimated.
Funny enough...many african and Indian hunters turned away from these borerifles, a few kept on to them, one was Sir Alfred Pease who always had his 10bore for lion, distrusting all the modern. Alfred used his 10bore right up to WW1.

Thanks for all the positive comments, I thought I would add a couple more photos.

Bores slugged at 0.842 with a 1:90 twist.


Cases are custom made and 3.5 inches long, I use over card wads and then a fibre wad. I stand the wads in melted wax until they are soaked all the way through, I “nuke” these for two minutes before loading so they are soft. The bullets are 1275 grains and the I fill the grease grove.


My hand reloading tool and the massive dies. This loading tool from John Miller works really good.


Round balls of 1,000 grains next to the 1275 grain bullets. I am not sure if I can drive the balls fast enough to make up for their lighter weight.

John,

If your test media treats both the the cast and Woodleigh solids the same then I would think that you would not have enough penetration with the cast bullet on a frontal shot. But I may well be wrong. It should work on a heart/lung shot and I just don't know on a side brain shot. I wouldn't take the chance though.

465H&H

John, you are off the Richter scale on the cool factor alone.

Please be sure to post a hunting report on your adventure.

Best of luck!!!

John and 8 Gauge, PMs sent. Thanks for the info and inspiration.

Bob

quote:

Good luck and keep me posted. Also, I'm working on a book on bore rifles. I'd love to include pics and specs of your bore rifles. When I get more settled, I will post on AR for contributions. I plan on at least a dozen 4s and 30-40 8s as well as smaller bore sizes and muzzle loaders as well.

Cheers,
Cal

Good luck and keep me posted. Also, I'm working on a book on bore rifles. I'd love to include pics and specs of your bore rifles. When I get more settled, I will post on AR for contributions. I plan on at least a dozen 4s and 30-40 8s as well as smaller bore sizes and muzzle loaders as well.

Cheers,
Cal

Hi Cal
I have not forgotten that your next book will be on bore rifles. I look forward to providing you with as many pictures as you can use, as well as my 8 Bore I have a superb 10 Bore pin fire DR. My plan is that by March I can provide you with a quantity of photos and data for an eight bore hunting Hippo, Buff and Ellie.

John,

That is fantastic!

Please, please, PLEASE have someone record your shot(s) on the elephant and share the video with us.

Good hunting,
George

Wonderful stuff!! Keep it coming.

quote:

Originally posted by John Hipwell:

quote:

Good luck and keep me posted. Also, I'm working on a book on bore rifles. I'd love to include pics and specs of your bore rifles. When I get more settled, I will post on AR for contributions. I plan on at least a dozen 4s and 30-40 8s as well as smaller bore sizes and muzzle loaders as well.

Cheers,
Cal

Good luck and keep me posted. Also, I'm working on a book on bore rifles. I'd love to include pics and specs of your bore rifles. When I get more settled, I will post on AR for contributions. I plan on at least a dozen 4s and 30-40 8s as well as smaller bore sizes and muzzle loaders as well.

Cheers,
Cal

Hi Cal
I have not forgotten that your next book will be on bore rifles. I look forward to providing you with as many pictures as you can use, as well as my 8 Bore I have a superb 10 Bore pin fire DR. My plan is that by March I can provide you with a quantity of photos and data for an eight bore hunting Hippo, Buff and Ellie.

Me buy both books

I`LL have two pighunts upcomming in dec..I`LL use the 10bore to get practice.

John:
Good luck with the hunt and your rifle(s). I depart AK for six months in the states and will be returning north in March. I will have email on the trip (most of the time, anyway) so stay in touch. I hope to publish within 2011. The history chapter is done with quotes from dozens of users and/or the guns they used and lots of photos. Over the winter I will welcome contributions of photos, reloading data, and hunt stories.
Stay well,
Cal

Cal,

PM sent re Double 4 bore and 8 bore.

Hello,

I wanted to thank John in public for his act of kindness.

Thank You John

Graeme
"Nitro450exp"

More penetration test



Left: .375 H&H. Barnes triple shock, 300 gr at 2,550 fps penetrated 20 inches
Middle: .375 H&H. Norma Oryx, 300 gr at 2,535 fps penetrated 11 inches.
Right: 6.5 MS Imperial 160 gr at 2,160 fps penetrated 8 inches

The Barnes and Norma performed as expected, although the increased depth of penetration from the Barnes was more than I expected. The 20 year old Imperial failed in my opinion, I would load with a premium bullet for African use.