Need Opinions on Custom Big Bore

26 August 2006, 09:55

EMC2

Gents,

I'm thinking about building (or having built for me, really) a DG rifle in .416 Rigby.

I'd like to do this for about $2,000.

I'm thinking about a CZ magnum action, A Heart, Douglas or Shilen barrel (need help here on contour and whether or not to have it fluted, (I guess it depends on how heavy we get).
I need advice on sights, and then we have the stock question. I'd prefer laminate over synthetic or walnut, and does anyone know the difference on felt recoil between the curved european style and straight American style stocks, and who sells them made to order?

All of your thoughts and input would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you

26 August 2006, 10:13

500grains

Why not start out with a CZ550 American in 416 Rigby for $750?

To upgrade substantially from that you will need a lot more than $2K.

Here is a properly constructed 416 Rigby:

It is built on a Granite Mountain Arms magnum Mauser double square bridge action with Joe Smithson quick detachable mounts. Sights are custom by Ryan Breeding (as is the whole gun) and extremely rugged to the point of being unbreakable. Finish is some kind of teflon rust proofing. English walnut stock. Stay away from the hogback stocks because they cause too much muzzle rise.

see www.rbbigbores.com

26 August 2006, 10:14

Hog Killer

I do not think you can build what you want (parts & labor) for 2K. Great if it happens, but...

For that price range, I would seriously look at getting the the Ruger RSM in 416 Rigby. Then up grade the recoil pad, check it's feeding of FPs,(get fixed if needed) and scope it. Might also want to change the front sight to NECG insert of your choice. If you like reciever sights, look at NECG's QD peep. Then go shoot it, alot and have fun.

Hog Killer

26 August 2006, 15:17

Marc_Stokeld

you can't do what you want for $2k unless someone donates all of their labor. If you start with a CZ .416 and keep the factory barrel (most shoot very well) it will get you a lot closer to happening. Depends on what all you want done. Is the $2k figure on top of the rifle and scope price, or all inclusive? If it is all inclusive, you need to do all of the work yourself.

Rebuilding a factory CZ is an economical way to getting a nice .416. If you do a search on this and the gunsmithing forum, you can find several rebuilt CZ's to give you some ideas of what can be done

26 August 2006, 17:05

duikerman

quote:
Originally posted by 500grains:
Why not start out with a CZ550 American in 416 Rigby for $750?

To upgrade substantially from that you will need a lot more than $2K.

If one starts there he's way way ahead of the game and it's possibly the only way to wind up with a 416 Rigby and stay under the 2K mark.

Just add options and accessories as you see fit and budget allows.

26 August 2006, 17:15

Die Ou Jagter

My God - something has 500grains blessing!

26 August 2006, 19:11

jeffeosso

Start and finish with the CZ (barreled action...)

Firstly and absolutely, Take it to the range and shoot it stock,,, go bang away with it, and see how the stock and sights fit you.

you CAN NOT replace the barrel, add sights that are "just as good", have it installed, a recoil lug added, and reblued for under ~$600 MINIMUM, and whatever you replace it with probably won't shoot any better .

So, Here's my advice

3position safety +install -
$350-400
Shorten the barrel and replace sight with an NECG front sight ,, this will give you more options on inserts. I would go with the UNIVERSAL front, as that would allow you adjustment to use the rears
$125-175

replace pad on the american stock
~$75 for a limbsaver

feeding and action tuning, and bedding
$-Whatever Dennis Olson wants, it's worth it

reblue,, beadblasted
$120-$175

replace the stock later, or have that be the last part of the project,

jeffe

26 August 2006, 19:15

Idaho Sharpshooter

Can't go wrong with Jeffe's suggestion. My thoughts exactly, but better put.
I see one advantage over the Ruger...single set trigger.

JMHO

Rich

26 August 2006, 21:45

Bent Fossdal

quote:
Originally posted by 500grains:
...... with Joe Smithson quick detachable mounts.

Dan,

I am trying to get information about theese mounts, do you have any links to his work, or better picks to show how they operate?

Thanks,

27 August 2006, 10:18

EMC2

Sound advice, thank you gentlemen. In fact most of the work would be donated. A close friend is a custom gunsmith for a defense contractor, so he isn't involved with the parts and particulars that you folks are aware of. He also stops short of advising me on what I want because he knows me too well...

I appreciate all your input, thank you.

EMC2

27 August 2006, 19:04

Stu C

quote:
Originally posted by 500grains:

Here is a properly constructed 416 Rigby:

It is built on a Granite Mountain Arms magnum Mauser double square bridge action with Joe Smithson quick detachable mounts. Sights are custom by Ryan Breeding (as is the whole gun) and extremely rugged to the point of being unbreakable.

The sights may be unbreakable but I'm not sure how I'd be able to use them with such a high stock comb. I hope the stock fits its owner better than it would fit me.

- stu

27 August 2006, 20:16

500grains

Bent,

The mounts are here:

http://www.blackburnmachine.com/338975.html

27 August 2006, 20:24

500grains

quote:
Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
My God - something has 500grains blessing!

Perhaps you were not paying attention.

Other product of which I have repeatedly spoken highly include:

BULLETS

GS Custom www.gscustom.co.za
North Fork www.northforkbullets.com
Bridger Bullets

MAUSER ACTIONS

Granite Mountain
Karl-Heinz Ritterbusch
Reimer Johannsen
Hein (for a model 70 style)

CUSTOM BOLT GUNS

Ryan Breeding
Ray Branigan (spelling??)
Heym (off the shelf)
Reimer Johannsen
Gottfried Prechtl
Karl Heinz Ritterbusch
Joe Smithson

DOUBLES

Butch Searcy
Heym
Peter Hambrusch

Off the shelf bolt guns for the common man: Blaser

27 August 2006, 22:44

lb404

500grains, I really like the sight package on the Breeding rifle as it looks hell for stout. I have had a hard time talking with him at the convention. He didn't seem interested in discussing things unless you were wanting to place an order. The stock design did not fit me well, I am short and fat and have a short length of pull. I have to be very careful in a custom rifle to get one to fit properly. Many mass produced custom rifle makers don't want to put much effort into the rifle fitting you. I had myself fitted at the Custom Gunmakers Guild show and gave the demensions to Butch when I placed my order. Ryan was not as convincing about the stock shape. How much are his rifles as pictured? I would like to try another rifle in 505 Gibbs but a $10,000.00 experiment I don't need. Is there anyone making a similar sight package that can be use on a CZ or Winchester etc.?

27 August 2006, 23:31

308Sako

EMC2,
Welcome to the forums.

The Hart rifle barrels you refer to are located in upstate NY, and do not make barrels over .358 diameter.

Do not flute a Big bore for classic astetics if nothing else.

Go with the laminate and keep the weight up, in the long run that will make for a better shooting experience on several levels.

27 August 2006, 23:36

EMC2

Thanks Sako,

The other question I forgot to ask was, to what length should a barrel be shortened to?

Would it depend on the balance of the complete rifle, ability to carry in the field, or is it based on harmonics of big bore bullets?

Thank you,

EMC2

28 August 2006, 08:07

500grains

quote:
Originally posted by lb404:
The stock design did not fit me well, I am short and fat and have a short length of pull.

Most of Ryan's guns that I have handled had a LOP of 14" or more. Probably just specified by their owner, but it is a fact that a longer LOP, within reason, will tend to reduce felt recoil.

quote:
I have to be very careful in a custom rifle to get one to fit properly. Many mass pr]oduced custom rifle makers don't want to put much effort into the rifle fitting you.

Shooting the exact same ammo in a Breeding .505 Gibbs and a CZ .505 Gibbs, the Breeding had 35-40% less felt recoil and about half the muzzle rise. That was due to stock design.

quote:
How much are his rifles as pictured?

Depending on action (GMA if .505 Gibbs), depending on magazine capacity (extra 1500 or so for 5 shot capacity), depending on wood, sights, mounts, I think the range would be 12-15K.

quote:
Is there anyone making a similar sight package that can be use on a CZ or Winchester etc.?

None that I have ever seen, or they would immediately eclipse NECG/ERA as the sights of choice for cheaper custom rifles.

28 August 2006, 08:35

N E 450 No2

I shot the Breeding 505 when I was out shooting prairie dogs with 500 grains.
As I have stated before the rifle was not painful to shoot.
It does push you back quite a bit. It was more comfortable to shoot than a 500 Jeffery bolt I have shot

I looked the rifle over closely and I was impressed with the worksmanship.
The rifle fed and functioned perfectly.
The rifle had a BIG feel to it, heck it was BIG, but an original Rigby in 416 feels BIG to me too, as they should. They are powerful guns. The rifle was balanced well.

For me I would prefer a skinner, "splinter" type fore stock as that is what I like.

28 August 2006, 08:36

700 nitro

i am having a ryan breeding 505 built and the cost is 11,500.

but my gun will have a synthetic stock..

it will also have a speical heavy contour barrel to hadle the upper loads of 600 grain bullets at 2500 fps+

28 August 2006, 09:36

lb404

That surprises me, the price. These rifles are not in the same league, in my opinion, as rifles made by many guild members and at half the price. Sight package not withstanding, I don't get it. My 500 Jeffery on an Orberndorf Mauser commercial action cost me a quater of that and by a great maker. No disrespect intended at all.

28 August 2006, 10:47

500grains

Any chance I could get an Obendorf .500 J for a similar price? Seriously, I would be very interested in a deal like that.

28 August 2006, 10:48

500grains

quote:
Originally posted by 700 nitro:

it will also have a speical heavy contour barrel to hadle the upper loads of 600 grain bullets at 2500 fps+

I am going to hunt with 600 grains at 2250 fps, but I am sure it would still work great with 600 grains at 2000 fps.

28 August 2006, 10:49

500grains

quote:
Originally posted by N E 450 No2:

For me I would prefer a skinner, "splinter" type fore stock as that is what I like.

It would kick more then, for sure.

The stock geometry is instrumental in felt recoil reduction.

28 August 2006, 16:58

Bent Fossdal

quote:
Originally posted by 500grains:
Bent,

The mounts are here:

http://www.blackburnmachine.com/338975.html

Thanks, Dan!
How do they operate? Push the button, lift stright up?

28 August 2006, 17:06

308Sako

quote:
Originally posted by EMC2:
Thanks Sako, you are welcome

The other question I forgot to ask was, to what length should a barrel be shortened to?

My .375 H&H has a 25" barrel and points and shoots fantastic.

Would it depend on the balance of the complete rifle, ability to carry in the field, or is it based on harmonics of big bore bullets?

The contour and center of gravity will determine the handling feel. Determine length based upon that feel factor. Not upon expected ballistics, longer has always proven better to me

Thank you, You are quite welcome, now on the plane and back to New York...

EMC2

28 August 2006, 18:02

500grains

Bent, yes that is how they work.

29 August 2006, 02:34

ForrestB

quote:
Originally posted by Bent Fossdal:
How do they operate? Push the button, lift stright up?

Push the button, slide to the rear to remove.
It's a solid system, but defintely slower than clawmounts for either attachment or removal.

29 August 2006, 09:56

EMC2

Can anyone provide a link or website that I can read about the "How's and Why's" that make a stock reduce felt recoil, and reduce muzzle jump? I get the feeling that this is a very important, and somewhat controllable issue in fitting myself into a big bore rifle.

Many thanks
EMC2

29 August 2006, 10:46

John in SC

EMC2,

Here is a website that may interest you.

http://www.brockmansrifles.com/working_rifle.asp

I know nothing of the quality of Mr. Brockman's work and have never seen one of his rifles. Note the stock alone can be purchased. At least you may enjoy the picture, seems along the lines of what you're thinking.

29 August 2006, 12:03

500grains

quote:
Originally posted by EMC2:
Can anyone provide a link or website that I can read about the "How's and Why's" that make a stock reduce felt recoil, and reduce muzzle jump? I get the feeling that this is a very important, and somewhat controllable issue in fitting myself into a big bore rifle.

Many thanks
EMC2

I do not know of a book, but the basics are as follow:

1. More drop = more muzzle rise = more felt recoil.

2. Shorter length of pull = more felt recoil. Use the longest LOP that is reasonable for your frame.

3. Cast off must be correct. Too little cast off and the buttstock will hit your cheekbone and rattle your noggin every shot.

4. Butt should be wide to spread out the force over a greater surface area of flesh. Thin stocked rifles concentrate the recoil on a smaller amount of shoulder meat, thus increasing felt recoil.

5. Use a really good recoil pad. Nothing less than a 1 inch pachmyr decelerator, and replace it every 10 years when it hardens up.

6. Excess muzzle blast can increase felt recoil. Use a gun with a longer barrel if this is a problem.

7. If the above are addressed and recoil is still a problem, consider putting some mercury tubes in the stock as they tend to take the bite out of recoil, not just because they add weight, but because the stationary inertia of the mercury counteracts a portion of the acceleration of the rifle toward your shoulder.

29 August 2006, 21:38

EMC2

500,

Thank you for taking the time to write up the general characteristics of good stock fit. I don't mean to give you more work, but I have a few questions...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 500grains:

1. More drop = more muzzle rise = more felt recoil. Is this drop at heel or comb, or both, And should the drop at heel and comb be close to equal?

3. Cast off must be correct. Too little cast off and the buttstock will hit your cheekbone and rattle your noggin every shot. Please explain "cast off" I don't know what that is.

5. Use a really good recoil pad. Nothing less than a 1 inch pachmyr decelerator, and replace it every 10 years when it hardens up. Would a Sims Limbsaver Prefit Recoil Pad be a comparable substitute, or is there nothing like a pachmyr?

6. Excess muzzle blast can increase felt recoil. Use a gun with a longer barrel if this is a problem. How does this relate to barrel porting, and should porting a big bore even be a consideration? I don't want to seem weak or wimpy, but porting does work. I personally hate barrel proting. I think it's nothing but a noise maker, but the numbers don't lie, it does reduce recoil.

Many thanks,
EMC2

30 August 2006, 09:49

500grains

The following is opinion and observation only and should not be taken for fact. Also, it applies to bolt guns, not doubles as they are fit differently.

quote:
Originally posted by EMC2:
500,

Thank you for taking the time to write up the general characteristics of good stock fit. I don't mean to give you more work, but I have a few questions...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 500grains:

1. More drop = more muzzle rise = more felt recoil. Is this drop at heel or comb, or both, And should the drop at heel and comb be close to equal?

Comb to heel should be straight and about parallel to the bore. If the drop at heel is much greater than the drop at comb, expect a lot of muzzle rise. Also, the recoil pad can be reverse cut so that the stock is a little bit shorter at the toe than at the heel to counteract muzzle rise a bit.

quote:
3. Cast off must be correct. Too little cast off and the buttstock will hit your cheekbone and rattle your noggin every shot. Please explain "cast off" I don't know what that is.

quote:
5. Use a really good recoil pad. Nothing less than a 1 inch pachmyr decelerator, and replace it every 10 years when it hardens up. Would a Sims Limbsaver Prefit Recoil Pad be a comparable substitute, or is there nothing like a pachmyr?

I have not used a Limbsaver, so no opinion. Probably the most effective recoil pad is the Answer System pad but it is extremely ugly. The Pachmyr F990 is also ugly but effective. The Kickeez pads are not quite as ugly but still unattractive. Next most effective is the pachmyr old english 1 inch, and it looks pretty good.

quote:
6. Excess muzzle blast can increase felt recoil. Use a gun with a longer barrel if this is a problem. How does this relate to barrel porting, and should porting a big bore even be a consideration? I don't want to seem weak or wimpy, but porting does work. I personally hate barrel proting. I think it's nothing but a noise maker, but the numbers don't lie, it does reduce recoil.

Porting works and breaks work. But on rifles up to .505 Gibbs, it is really not necessary.

30 August 2006, 10:07

RIP

quote:
Originally posted by 500grains:

... Also, the recoil pad can be reverse cut so that the stock is a little bit shorter at the toe than at the heel to counteract muzzle rise a bit.

It is heart warming to see 500grains being so patient. However he needs to introduce the term "PITCH" to the above discussion.

The proper pitch of the butt he is describing is called "pitch down."

It not only makes the muzzle rise less, it also makes the rifle fit the shoulder better and more comfortably. Zero pitch or pitch up would just feel awkward when shouldered, as well as making the muzzle(s) rise more and encourage the toe of the butt to "spear" the shoulder, less comfortable.

Do not confuse pitch with drop.

The Sims Limbsaver is an excellent pad, at least as good as a Pachmayr Decelerator.

30 August 2006, 19:28

Idaho Sharpshooter

500gr,

how much "pitch down" are we talking? 1/4"? More?
Going to do a little wood work in a few.

Rich

02 September 2006, 05:35

RIP

Rich,
I am not 500gr, however, I recently did the butt cut of an MPI stock for the 76 Dakota in .423 Lapua RIPoff.

That MPI stock blank had zero pitch (butt perpendicular to bore), so I did indeed pitch it down by 1/4" at the toe versus the heel.

That is all it takes, 1/4" as you say.

02 September 2006, 06:06

zimbabwe

Here is my 416Rigby CZ550 custom that cost considerably less than $2K. The stock is a Brockman dropin unfinished approx $325 the frontsight is a NECG Universal (adjustable for elevation) with a fiber optic bead I think for under $50 the pair. Barrel band front swivel $35. Barrel was shortened to 21". Around $100 in shop charges. I do use a scope in CZ rings. I think the rings are around $50. It must be adequate as the tusks in the bacground were taken with it. To me the CZ's are the best bargain available. I did modify the follower to allow the last round to feed better but it isn't required. I saw David Miller did his Mdl 70's and it's an easy mod.Shoots 410gr Woodleigh's into an inch all day long.

02 September 2006, 07:23

SDhunter

EMC2,

I'll throw in my 2 cents worth.

I am am having a CZ 416 Rigby being worked over right now as we speak.

I went with a hogback stock because it fit me much better than the American style. I tried them both on numerous occasions.

I am am going to be into it for about $2100 by the time it all said and done. But when it is done, it will be what I want. It is going to be a solid hunting gun, not fancy or extreme in any way, but nice and functional.
In a nutshell here is what I'm having done:
-New trigger and three pos safety
-barrel shortened to 23"
-barrel band
-action smoothed out, feeding resolved with my choice of bullet (Barnes 400gr TSX)
-three crossbolts and bedding
-the original stock is being trimmed down, the forearm shortened, the schnabel reshaped, recheckered and refinished.
-permanent rear peep and patridge front sight. That is my preference over the express sights. I have a bunch of trigger time behind peep sights(rifles) and patridge style front sights (from pistols)
-all topped with Talley QR rings and Leupold 1-5 scope.

The only other option that I saw was to watch Gunbroker, Gunsamerica, or Auction Arms for a DG rifle. I have seen some go for very fair prices. The only problem I saw with that route was if the gun didn't fit me. Then I would've had to spend the money to get that taken care of.