Ok I know this has been hashed and rehashed but I'm gonna ask anyways I am just starting to reload have had most of the equipment for quite sometime just never the time or space. And I know there are more than a few winnies on this board, my most recent total from Mike 375's survey was out of 53 .45 cal rifles 23 were the of the win mag variety. So I am looking for a do all load either with 450 480 or 500 grainers. I don't mind using one load for everything, don't have to think about it that way, just get it and go even if you are driving an 8 penny nail with a sledge hammer sometimes So hypothetically speaking if you were droped in a survival situation with your win mag a knife and one load for said gun what would it be, bearing in mind that you might have to shoot anything from little bunny rabbits all the way up to the biggest mean and nasties??? And no you weren't dropped with a chamber reamer to auger it out to a lott!!!! thanks gabe

First let me say the 458 Win Mag doesn't deserve the bad reputation it is bound with! This rep was the fault of the factory, curshing the powder to get enough in to work a 500 gr bullet. The 458 Win Mag doesn't have the powder capacity to handle 500 gr bullets properly. This cartridge was designed to replace the 450NE 3.25" double rifle cartridge, in a short bolt action. The cartridge it replaced never used a 500 gr bullet, and the winnie shouldn't either.

I can go along one weight bullet, but not one type! I use the 480 gr Woodliegh solids, and softs, loaded to 2150 fps, an exact duplicate of the 450NE 3.25"! works like a charm on anything you want to shoot with it. For cheap stump shooting I use a load for the 400 gr Speer soft point, made for the 45-70. I use mostly the Woodliegh softs for serious hunting in Alaska,and Canada. The solids are reserved for Africa!

I seldom if ever disagree with Mac but I almost do on the question of the 458 win. It has failed on many ocassions and has had problems when handloaded to proper specs...

IMO it was poorly designed to start with by bean counters corrupting the industry....It should have been on a 3" case from the get go and none of this discussion would be ocurring...Presently, it is giving problems in Africa with the enhanced loads as they are locking up the actions, and I suspect the factory is now quitely loading the enhanced stuff down...

The 458 has a history or failure and success, I have seen it perform both well and miserably..All that smoke means to me that there is a fire someplace...If I had one I would automatically rechamber it a tiny bit to the Lott at least and probably to the new African 3" version....

It can be loaded properly and get by as a DG rifle well enough I suppose, but it will never be among the excellent rounds for Africa...and thats just my personal opinnion only.

I load a 500 grain Hornady over a heavy charge of IMR-4064 for right on 2100 FPS.Get good accuracy from this load from my Browning.

Ray,
Man,don't tell that to all those elephants and cape buffalo that have been killed by the inferior 458 Winny-their bones will jump right out of the ground and start running around again! Funny,a 300 grain bullet at 2400 FPS from your 338 is a cape buff load,but my 500 grain Hornady at 2100 FPS isn't?

458 Winchester bashing is very popular since the re-intoduction of the 416.Heck,folks who haven't even shot a 458 like to bash it.

JMHO.

I don't have the Africa experience that Ray does but I did bring a 458 on my first safari and the handloaded Trophy Bonded solids did kill the elephant and buffalo very dead with one shot each. In subsequent safaris I have used 416 and 375 etc. just because I own a few guns and like to hunt with them all. I would take the 458 again though if I felt like it.

Actually I think the question was about an all around load. The 350X that can be driven at 2500fps + was my load here in AK for years. Great load for all heavy game here. The Trophy Bonded 500gr. bullets both softs and solids can be driven safely to 2100fps in my my 20" barrel mauser and seemed to fill the bill for Africa.

I agree that the 458 should have been made longer but I think if it is handloaded carefully with good bullets that it can be more than adequate in many applications.

It wouldn't hurt to read the cautions in the A-Square manual against leaving compressed loads assembled with ball powder loaded for more than three months. According to Art Alphin, the balls glued themselves together in a solid lump, and then did not burn properly and produced very low velocities in .458 Win.

In my opinion, try this near perfect load.

450 gr Barnes X
82.0 R12
WLRM
2350 fps

Then tell me about performance.

Gustavo

Thanks for the replies so far, keep em coming!! gabe

Brian,
I am not comparing calibers as to their effectiveness..I certainly know the 458 will kill buffalo and have used it, seen it used, but if you ask most experienced PH's in Africa they will tell you that a handload is necessary to make it a good killer, but one runs the risk of compaction with the 458 handloaded or overloaded factory ammo, and that is why Win and others cut it back to 1800 plus in some cases.. Many cullers have found the bullets embedded 3"'s in the carcass of elephants and buffalo because of this and many have had extraction problems and misfires, this has all been documented many times. It is of record with the Zimbabwe game dept. It is not a question of if you agree or not.

If you want to use it then I have not objection, I will not use any round that has such a poor track record. Now, the new enhanced ammo is giving extraction problems in Africa according to Man Magnum Magazine of RSA.. No one can deny it has a questionable reputation or we wouldn't be argueing the case.

My question then would be why risk it when we have so many fine calibers and the fact that a 458 can be converted to a Lott with so little effort...the lott is the most requested conversion in Africa by many PH's by the way..and many are going to the African 3" version, which makes a lot of since, and now ammo for the 3" version is on the horizon....

My opinion is that when someone has spent hard earned money on something and it turns out to be a dud, they have a hard time accepting that fact and will defend it to their death, which may be the case with the 458 Win with a lot of folks, but for $50. bucks you can have one of the best rounds for DG that exists, the 458 Lott, so I'm miffed at such arguements....

That's just the way I see it...

Ray,

If you took a sample of 100 PHs who had calibers bigger than 375 H&H, what would you feel would be a rough break up of 416 Rem, 458 Winchester and 458 Lott.

Also same for hunters going to Africa where they take a rifle bigger than 375 H&H.

Thanks.

Mike

Ray, I was hoping that you would look in on this one. I fully understand the limitations (or supposed limitations) of the 458 Win and knew when I got it that it was a handloading prospect at best or ream it out to a Lott in the worst case scenario. I want to give it a go in it's current configuration be it right or wrong and just see what it's got. You speak of it's adequacy (sp??) when propperly hand loaded, so what constitutes a propper handload? And also do you see the 450 or 480 grain slugs as being a better option than the 500? thanks gabe

Mac, Nail.... head.... you got it My 458 is a Mark X and I am not sure if ti is conducive to the switch over without alot of work, but either way I want to see what it has got before I make the decision to do so, I don't want to just out the gate do it without my own experiences to back up my decision. gabe

Mac and Gabe,
I can't argue with your posts, you are correct in your assertation of the subject, and I did get off the subject inadvertainly (sp?)

I believe most PH carry a 375 H&H if a pole was taken, and next the 458 then the 416...The 416 is quickly taking the 375's place with PH's it appears to me and I am of the opinnion about half have had their 458's chambered out and the other half are talking about it...

It is the most asked question I get from PH's when I go to africa, that is "do you think I should have my 458 made into a Lott" or "what would it cost to have my 458 converted", or "I have had a problem or two and I think I'm going to chamber my 458 to a Lott"...It will come up most of the time if the PH has a 458..

Like I said, where their is that much smoke there just has to be some fire...Even Hornady is using the failure of the 458 to sell their new enhanced ammo...

I do believe the 450 or 480 bullets make the 458 usable to a much better degree..the light monlithics do not as they are as long as conventional bullets so compaction comes back into play..whatever is done with the .458 is a compromise and I don't like that.

Sorry for the double post, it happens...while I'm here I might add that the Whitworth can easily be converted to a Lott, I have done several of them and be sure and open them up in back for the most part....

So Ray would you be an advocate of the 450 over the 480 or vise versa? I know I am probably beating this to death but it beats the troll posts in terms of relevance to the board gabe

My Lott is a Whitworth MkX that started life as a 375 H&H, and it fed perfectly without any major work. Like Ray, My choice would be the Lott, and the only reason I put up with my 458 Win Mag, is I have had zero trouble out of it, and I already have a Lott.

As a notice to the rank and file here in the next year I'm going to have a bunch of rifles, and hunting pistols for sale! I want to pare down to about five rifles, a couple double rifles, and three or four bolt rifles. I have rifles in the back of my safes that have not been shot in years, time to clean out.

Biff,
I can't say as I have not used the 480 or the 450, but a lesser weight bullet makes since, however you then give us valued Sectional Density and penitration...

I suppose if I was stuck with a 458 then I would opt for a 500 gr. Speer Tungston solid because it is shorter than the other solids and I would try for 2000 FPS and milder pressures, maybe 2100 would be safe, if so thoes would be a fine loads and perhaps make the 458 a suitable caliber, but I'm just guessing that it would and would have to work on that, it does sound logical to me..Anyway thats where I would start.

But it is so simple to go to the Lott and its not expensive, so why bother with the std. vesion...it just doesn't make since to me and you can still shoot std. 458 ammo in the Lott...