I Bought an unknown - I was hoping this was a 404 Jeffery

Hello all,

When this one came up for auction last month I couldn't resist placing a bid to "tag" it, just to see high it would go.
Apparently my "tag" was too high, because I ended up as the winner. I ha hoped it was a 404 Jeffery as described.
The German metric designation for the 404J is 10.75x73 .... this is listed as 10.8x72. Will this be close enough? The fabulous
stock was a big attraction.

Regardless, this looks to be a keeper. I can't wait to get it in hand. Here is the original auction listing.


http://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/imman-0.jpg

quote:

Will this be close enough?

Most likely

quote:

Originally posted by Axel E.: . . ."The old German proofmarks, as used from 1912 to 1939, often confuse moderns, especially Americans. Most German proofhouses marked not part of the cartridge name nor the larger groove or bullet diameter, but the smaller bore/land diameter. It was measured at the proofhouse using cylindrical plugs in .1 mm increments. Here a 10.8 mm plug passed the bore, but a 10.9 mm one did not. So the actual bore diameter may have been 10.89 mm. You have to add 2x the groove depth of about .1 to .2 mm to get an idea about the groove or bullet diameter. So I think the 10.8 mm bore and 72mm case length point to the old 11.2x72 Schueler cartridge rather than the .404."

Well, as posted by Axel E., a leading Mauser expert from the German Gun Collecting Forum, I think the mystery of caliber is identified.

Although I would have preferred if it was a 404 Jeffery caliber, I will be satisfied with the rifle if its an 11.2x72 Schuler caliber. Fortunately since I have 2 other rifles in the Schuler caliber, I have lots of brass and bullets.

I wish the auction house would have listed "believed to be the metric designation for the 11.2x72 Schuler" instead of listing "believed to be the metric designation for the 404 Jeffery". The reason being that the 404 Jeffery is a popular cartridge with readily available commercial ammo, where as; the 11.2x72 Schuler is an obsolete cartridge with no commercial ammo available, and very limited availability of brass and bullets and dies for reloading. If the listing had stated the Schuler caliber, bidding would likely have been much lower. Bidders would have been less likely to buy a rifle that required custom hand-loading, and I would have paid a lot less for the rifle.

Looks close enough to ream out to a 404???

hello Ray

Unfortunately I cant do that. Because, the 404 Jeffery has a groove dia of .422 and the 11.2x72 Schuler has a groove dia of .440.

Beautiful rifle! The long barrel and straight stock will make it dream to shoot.

.418 or.423 bore?

.424 bore ... .440 groove

Hello All,

I got the rifle in hand today. Its an 11.2x72 Schuler caliber.The rifle weighs 9 pounds 15 ounces, with a 15" LOP. Here are the markings I found. I hope to know if this was an Oberndorf commercial action / barrel to start with. I talked to the man that did the complete restoration which was finished in December 2005. He is James Tucker, and he is a member of the American Custom Gunmakers Guild. This gun is far more spectacular in hand than any pictures can show. James Tucker Custom stocks start at about $5,500 plus the cost of the blank. Exhibition grade blanks like this one can cost over $3,000. Not sure what all the metalwork would have cost.

That title "Imman/Muller Custom German Model 98 Sporting Rifle with Scope" is the way this gun was listed on the Proxibid listing for the Auction. The Auction House had no clue that it was a complete restoration by James Tucker. Only after I purchased the rifle, and pulled the action, did I discover the markings in the stock. Searching the name TUCKER, brought me to the ACGG web site where I learned that he was a member. On that site I found his phone number and called him and received all the History about this build. Thank goodness the Auction House experts were too too incompetent to discover what I had discovered, otherwise I would not have been able to afford the rifle. And, much to my surprise I found that Mr. Tucker is a Master builder of much Fame. I got very lucky and bought the rifle for less that 1/4 of what it cost the customer back in 2003, and about 1/6 of what it would cost me to have Mr. Tucker build it today.

http://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/IMMAN-markings-0.jpg

Hello All,

Well, I'm back from the range today. My results are below. I loaded conservative between "normal" and "near maximum" from data was published in Rifle Magazine; Issue #144 - November, 1992.

I loaded using new Bertram Brass with Winchester Large Rifle Magnum Primers and an overall loaded length of 3.290 inches. Powder was slightly compressed when seating the bullets. All fired brass showed NO signs of excessive pressure with easy extraction. Fired primers had normal rounded edges and were NOT flattened. (velocities were measured using a Garman Xero C1 Doopler Radar Chronograph - muzzle velocity accurate to with 0.10 fps)

Recoil energy with this 9 lb 15 oz rifle was a pleasant 61 ft/lbs.

Its important to note: this field test data proves velocities at or above 2400 fps are easily obtainable with the 11.2x72 Schuler cartridge - at least with this rifle. Based on my test, I would not hesitate to accept all the other published loading data from that source. Results in other rifles may vary, so reduce your starting loads and work your way up as required.

Wt. - Bullet - Powder Mfg - Powder - Charge - Velocity

401g - Woodleigh softpoint - Hodgdon - H-4895 - 83.0g - 2,401 fps

401g - Woodleigh solid - Hodgdon - H-4895 - 83.0g - 2,410 fps



http://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/IMMAN-TARG.jpg

Good shooting

Good velocities there.

Hello All,

Well, I went back to the range today. The reason being that I ran out of Hodgdon 4895 powder that I tested yesterday. I searched all the shops within the State and the also the internet. Every place was sold out - even the Hodgdon web site. I had several pounds of IMR 4895 which is a tad slower burning. I could not find any loading data for this powder, so I thought I'd establish some.

Once again I loaded using new Bertram Brass with Winchester Large Rifle Magnum Primers and an overall loaded length of 3.290 inches. Powder was slightly compressed when seating the bullets. All fired brass showed NO signs of excessive pressure with easy extraction. Fired primers had normal rounded edges and were NOT flattened. (velocities were measured using a Garman Xero C1 Doopler Radar Chronograph - muzzle velocity accurate to with 0.10 fps)

With this slower burning powder recoil energy was reduced to a pleasant 60 ft/lbs. (one ft/lb less)

This field test again proves velocities approaching 2400 fps are obtainable with the 11.2x72 Schuler cartridge in this rifle. Remember, results in other rifles may vary, so reduce your starting loads and work your way up as required.

Wt. - Bullet - Powder Mfg - Powder - Charge - Velocity

401g - Woodleigh softpoint - IMR - IMR-4895 - 83.0g - 2,373 fps



http://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/IMMAN-TARG-1.jpg

That should put a smile on your face....
Well Done

AWESOME!

Don’t know that caliber but it looks super to me! Great catch and thanks for sharing the info!

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
Don’t know that caliber but it looks super to me! Great catch and thanks for sharing the info!

The 11.2 X 72 SCHULER was introduced in 1904 and produced until WW2. It utilizes the rebated rim design which will fit the bolt of the M88 8mm mauser case. It was adopted by numerous rifle manufacturers and utilized in the German African protectorates as a big game cartridge.

You have a winner..I recall a fine 450-400-3 inch that shot 408, 410 and 411 and no problem according to the owner, I slugged my double at 408 and 410 and no problem..A couple of thousands is seldom a problem as far as I have determined..??? I always worked up max loads and tight got a grain or two less..I like old English and Germatic guns but those old gun smith were guess and by gosh in regards to bores and chambers, but they survived a 100 or more years shooting the wrong size bullets in many cases