Hello!

HAs someone strong loads with 500 gr bullets and Alliant or Vithavuori or Norma powder in 450 N.E. with solids(Barnes BAnded) or soft points?

Thank you very much...

I assume you have a Ruger No.1 in .458 WinMag or .458 Lott that was rechambered for .450 NE 3-1/4" if you are asking for "strong loads"???

Art Alphin's max loads for a double would be a good place to start and work up from there. I plan to, one of these days if I ever quit putzing around on this website and get out to shoot.

He used 465 grain Monolithic Solids. Pressures were CUP, not PSI. A-Square brass. CCI-250 primer, 25.5" barrel, 15" twist:

H4831, 101.0 gr/2196 fps/30,000 CUP
IMR4350, 95.0 gr/2244 fps/35,700 CUP
RL-19, 99.0 gr/2186 fps/31,500 CUP

Those would be max with a double rifle, and I wouldn't use the bronze Barnes "banded" solids in a double any more than I would use the A-Square monolithics of brass with no bands.

However, if it is a single barrel like a Ruger No.1, then let'er rip.

Those would be some starting loads for the 500 gr Barnes Banded solids in a Ruger No.1.

For a more gentle approach for old doubles see Graeme Wright:

480 grain Woodleigh RNSP, 95.0 grains of IMR 4831, 2130 fps

If you chronograph anything, let us know. I will too ... one of these days.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
I assume you have a Ruger No.1 in .458 WinMag or .458 Lott that was rechambered for .450 NE 3-1/4" if you are asking for "strong loads"???

Art Alphin's max loads for a double would be a good place to start and work up from there. I plan to, one of these days if I ever quit putzing around on this website and get out to shoot.

He used 465 grain Monolithic Solids. Pressures were CUP, not PSI. A-Square brass. CCI-250 primer, 25.5" barrel, 15" twist:

H4831, 101.0 gr/2196 fps/30,000 CUP
IMR4350, 95.0 gr/2244 fps/35,700 CUP
RL-19, 99.0 gr/2186 fps/31,500 CUP

Those would be max with a double rifle, and I wouldn't use the bronze Barnes "banded" solids in a double any more than I would use the A-Square monolithics of brass with no bands.

However, if it is a single barrel like a Ruger No.1, then let'er rip.

Those would be some starting loads for the 500 gr Barnes Banded solids in a Ruger No.1.

For a more gentle approach for old doubles see Graeme Wright:

480 grain Woodleigh RNSP, 95.0 grains of IMR 4831, 2130 fps

If you chronograph anything, let us know. I will too ... one of these days.

Thank you very much!

It is a pretty new Heym Double rifle side by side...

SafariScortch,

You should read some of 500Grains stuff on mono bullets. Do a search.

Starting with Woodleighs is the safe bet. And your rifle will shoot best with a load that matches closely what it was regulated with. This will be a more traditional load and not a hot rod load.

Have you read about how to find a load that matches what your rifle was regulated with? Shooting apart, crossing, low or high and what this means for your load and its development?

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

Have you read about how to find a load that matches what your rifle was regulated with? Shooting apart, crossing, low or high and what this means for your load and its development?

JPK

No i didnt`. Where can i read something about it?

I would like to load strong loads with Trophy Bondeds SP and Barnes Banded Solids...

Norma Powder prefered...

SafariScortch,

First let me say that you are risking serious damage to your rifle shooting the Barnes homogenous solid. Two basic reasons are that their design creates undue stress on the rifling of double rifles, especially older ones, the second that it creates undue stress on the ribs holding any DR together.

Graeme Wright wrote a book called "Shooting the English Double Rifle" or something close that is the bible.

You should be posting your questions on the Double Rifle forum here at AR or at NitroExpress.com. There are more experienced folks than I and I'm sure someone either has or has experience with a 450 NE. By the way there are a couple of 45 cal NE rounds. The two labeled closest to "450 NE" are the 450 NE 3 1/4", ussually just refered to as 450NE, and the 450 NE No2. Both use different cases.

I'll give you the basics on getting your rifle to shoot here but you should definitely try the other forums.

First, you rifle is "regulated" with one load by the maker. This is apparently almost exclusively a soft point load and a solid load which matches its POI are your primary loads. For example, in my rifle the solid load utilizes one grain less powder than the soft point load to shoot to the same POI.

Whatever load the maker used to regulate your rifle is what you are searching for.

Regulate: the process of soldering the barrels together such that each barrel shoots imeadiately adjacent to the other, right on right, left on left, and to the POA at a given distance, often 50yds or 60m. A theoretically perfectly regulated rifle will shoot with the barrels together and the target appearing as a figure 8 lying on its side from the muzzles to too far to shoot, with only the elevation of the patern, relative to the POA, changing.

Since the original load may be stamped om the barrel flats that is your staring point. There are conversion equations for estimating what the original cordite load should be close to for various modern powders. I don't know the equations but the fellows on the two forums suggested surely will. Some of todays powders REQUIRE fillers in the big Nitro cases, again the guys on the other forums are good sources.

If your rifle is properly regulated, and assuming its a SxS, and it probably is both, then if you were to lie just the barrels on a flat surface and use the sights to aim at a target say 50yds away and then look down each barrel you will see that neither points at the target. Rather, the right barrel will be pointing down and left and the left barrel down and right. This is because the art of regulation is to solder the barrels in such a position relative to themselves and the sights that the bullet from the right barrel exits at the moment that it is parrallel to the original POA, and the left does likewise.

A SxS DR recoils up and to the right for the right barrel and up and to the left for the left barrel because the barrels are off centerline and the torque moves them toward their side in recoil.

You are looking for a combination of bullet weight and velocity that matches the original load. A 450 NE typically uses a 480 grain bullet so you know what the bullet weight should be. Each rifle is different and some don't play by the rules but the rules are that if you are shooting low you need more bullet weight to create more recoil and less velocity so that the bullet leaves the muzzle when it is higher due to the recoil, if the rounds are crossing you need less velocity to get more barrel time and thus more POI change from the torque of the recoil. If you are shooting high you need to come down on bullet weight and if the rifle is shooting apart you need more velocity.

Since any one change will affect both the height or the crossing/shooting apart variables, finding the right load can be troublesome. Throw in that some rifles will prefer brand x powder rather than brand y and you can see why guys are happy when they find the load that shoots well. You should strive for the groups from the right and left to be adjacent to each other with overlap, similar to the theoretical figure 8 on its side. Once you get there you can change the height of POI by changing front sight heights and go right or left by drifting the rear sight as appropriate.

As I said, not all rifles follow the rules but I understand most do. Often a rifle will also shoot well with a bullet of 75% of the weight of the regulation bullet weight sitting on top of the same powder load the works for the full weight bullet.

My rifle shoots 500 grain softs and solids with the solids requiring one less grain of powder for the same POI. It also shoots a 350 grain soft point load well, though a bit lower, with the same powder load that works for the 500 grain soft. On the other hand it breaks the rules and shoots very poorly with a 500grain load at very reduced velocity, shooting low, as one would epect, but also crossing counter to the rules. I believe that the velocity and thus recoil are so low from this load that there is little recoil - shoots low - and little torgue too - crosses.

Hope this helps,

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
SafariScortch,



Hope this helps,

JPK

It will help!

Thank you very much!

It is a pretty new but used Heym SIdebyside DR.

I think it can stand a hand of powder

I will post my results of course!

But do you really think that the new solids from barnes will hurt a gun 10 years old ?!

Bravo JPK, well said by a gentleman and scholar of the double rifle.

S,
I would not risk a double of any age or make with bronze solids.

The Barnes solids are not "banded" really. They are "extra-cannelured." I would not use them in my Merkel .470 double, but I will use them in my Ruger No.1 "single-tube" .450 NE 3-1/4".

Since you started off asking for "strong loads" I assumed you had a single barrel.

You simply need to find the load that your rifle is regulated for, as JPK says.

You need some GSC FN solids or North Fork FP solids that are copper, monometal, driving banded, flat point (for best penetration) and easy on doubles. Start with Woodleigh softs and then you will likely need to reduce the charge a grain or two or 3 for the solids.

I accept "inferior regulation" and am happy if I get a load to cross at 50 or 100 yards/meters. That is 1.6" for a four shot group (RLRL) at 50 yards in my Merkel: Horrible! Inferior cheap double quality!

To keep the right and left groups parallel to infinity takes infinitesimally well regulated barrels and infinitesimally reproducible loads, at constant temperature and barometric pressure and humidity.

Impossible for practical purposes. (Just yanking chain.)

RIP,

As I said "theoretical".

I can tell you that I can't shoot well enough with open sights to know how the regulation of my rifle stands up at 100yds. But its better than my eyes can shoot for darn sure!

SafariScortch,

Glad to be of help but remember, you cannot hotrod a DR since if you try it won't shoot woth a darn. You don't need to hotrod a 450NE since more than 100 years of experience has proven again and again that its original performance is adequate and more for any DG situation.

Keep in mind that for some powders, full case width fillers compressed between the powder and bullet are required for safety! Kynamco sells foam wads that are popular and some guys use saddle felt. Check with guys on the other forums for their loads and advice re fillers but for the good of your rifle and your safety make sure you use apropriate powders and the fillers they may require.

Good luck and please report your results!

JPK

Safarischorsch
teh design of a double rifle is the weakest of all rifle actions, whether it is 1 year old or 100 years old.
The only bullets I would consider using in your 450 Nitro would be the standard conventional bullets, such as the 350 and the 500 Hornady, the Woodleigh Softs ans Solids, the 500 Swift and the North Fork 450 gr. cup p,oint and flat point solids.
I would start with 480 Woodleigh Softs and 80 grains of RL 15 WITH FILLER. You will probably find around 83 grains to regulate with the Softs. Then start with 80 grains with the Woodleigh solids.
Do that first and let us know how the Heym shoots.

Sirs who like doubles to shoot parallel groups to infinity:

Is there any hope for me with this Merkel .470 NE shooting the George Hoffman Memorial Load of 109 to 110 grains of H4831SC????

(Thanks to jjs for educating me on this load. No filler. No more RL-15 in my double. BeLL brass and GM215M primer.)

In the group below, it was 109 grains with the TBSH solid, and they were the originals from the Jack Carter days. Jack's flat nose solid was ahead of its time:



I hereby update my bragging group to 0.972" at 50 meters (precisely).

I only did 1.6" at 50 yards (precisely) with Woodleigh softs and RL-15 with filler.

Note that two of my bullets went into the same hole, one right and one left. A sure sign of crossing.

Man, I'm sure glad my 470NE Merkel doesn't shoot so badly!

quote:

Note that two of my bullets went into the same hole, one right and one left. A sure sign of crossing.

Or...........the shooter pulling the shot!

Those Merkels sure are, junk aren't they?

If you have a double, I guess I don't understand the question. I too assumed that you had something other than a double. If you have a double, then the project is to find a load that shoots well in your double. In general this means starting with a load that duplicates the factory loads used to regulate your rifle when it was built. These loads will do the job in hunting situations, so I am not sure why you would want a "strong load".
Just MHO, Peter.

RIP,

Clearly your load or your rifle is way out of whack, or maybe your eyesight too. Your rifle shows all the signs of crossing with that load. And, GEEZ!, you sure pulled that one real flyer. Where is the figure 8? (Uh, no, not that one...the one on its SIDE?)

(I don't know how the hell to put those jumping smily faces here so just imagine them!)

JPK

Kind sirs:
Please note that the Art Alphin H4831 data (FOR THE 450 NE ABOVE) was with the old stuff (like the war surplus stuff), before the days of the new "Extreme" Hodgdon line with the NEW H4831SC. Safarischorsch should note that the 109 to 110 grains of H4831SC is for 470NE, NOT 450NE.

It appears my right barrel shoots slightly higher than my left barrel, so I will never get the much sought after figure-of-eight-on-its-side group (otherwise known as the infinity sign).

However, if it is necessary that I shoot my left barrel second in a charge, having failed to stop the juggernaut with the first shot, it has a built in downward lead by about a 1/2 inch at 50 yards.

This will undoubtedly increase my chances of survival, with a buffalo, lion, leopard, or rhino, assuming I am standing up rather than sitting down to face the charge. Of course when hunting elephant I will stand for all shots, and wait to within 25 yards before shooting, so the small error is down to 1/4" and decreasing rapidly when I fire.

RIP:

You are most welcome but all the credit should go to Mr. Hoffman as you so noted!

Interesting about the A-Square manual and the powder....I guess it proves the point of starting low and working up a load as well as always take a chronograph when developing, changing components, or lots of powder!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My Merkel shoots better than I can with open sights...but I get lucky every now and then...

jjs,
Thank YOU!

Remember this thread started out about 450 NE data.

The larger bore 470 NE needs more powder! Just a mental gear shift.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Safarischorsch
teh design of a double rifle is the weakest of all rifle actions, whether it is 1 year old or 100 years old.
The only bullets I would consider using in your 450 Nitro would be the standard conventional bullets, such as the 350 and the 500 Hornady, the Woodleigh Softs ans Solids, the 500 Swift and the North Fork 450 gr. cup p,oint and flat point solids.
I would start with 480 Woodleigh Softs and 80 grains of RL 15 WITH FILLER. You will probably find around 83 grains to regulate with the Softs. Then start with 80 grains with the Woodleigh solids.
Do that first and let us know how the Heym shoots.

Thank you all!

My problem is:
I bought the rifle from a dealer yesterday who bought it few weeks ago because the owner died...
The problem: There are only 10 fresh loaded cartridges brass Romey(WR) CCI250 and 3331 powder with filler and flat nosed hollo point bullets(speer???) left.

They seem to be for shooting at the shootingrange only, not for DG!

I am very interested in Northfolk bullets but...Who sends them to me(Germany)

so i would like to regulate the DR with bear claws because they worked perfectly on buff and i can get them in Germany, A-Frames too.

My favorite powder will be Norma MRP because you wont have to take filler...

The nice thing about the 450 Nitros is that you can use the modern made .458 diameter bullets.
The original load for the 450 Nitro was 70 grains of Cordite, with a 480 grain bullet.
The conversion factor for Reloader 15 is 1.19. So about 83 grains should regulate. I would start with 78 grains with the more common 500 grsin bullets that will be easier for you to get. You must use a filler with RL 15.

The conversion fromula for IMR 4831 is 1.33.So 93 grains of IMR 4831 should be about right.
I would start with 88 grains again with 500 grain bullets.

But you want to use a powder you can get in Germany, Norma MRP.
MRP is "about" the same burn rate as IMR 4831.
So it would PROBABLY be safe to start with 88 grains of MRP, magnum primers and 500 grain bullets, and work up one grain at a time. Since you cannot get North Fork bullets I would stay away from mono-metal bullets.
500 gr A Frames shoot very good in my 450 No2 and they work great on buff, as do 480 Woodleigh Softs. My double shoots as good with 500 grainers as it does with 480's.

quote:

500 gr A Frames shoot very good in my 450 No2 and they work great on buff, as do 480 Woodleigh Softs. My double shoots as good with 500 grainers as it does with 480's.

Thank you N E 450 No2!

Is it possible that Trophy bondeds BC are not vrey common here??

In Europe we like them very much at heavy game!

Are ther any problems with DRs?