why do i see alot posted about the 375 H&H but not to much about the 378 wheatherby? Isnt the 378 clearly a better cartridge then the 375? Its faster shoots flatter what gives?
I've always been interested in the 378 Weatherby. I own four Weatehrbys but my predilection for them stops at the 340. At first glance, you are absolutely correct in that it shoots flatter and with more energy (whatever that means).
The down side is that recoil is quite ferocious, ammo is considerably more expensive and so are the rifles. But let's examine why it has not and will never outsell the 375 H&H. Most of the animals that one would use either caliber for are on average BIG as in the case of eland, dangerous as in the case of lions and or both as in buffalo. Hence, the ranges at which these animals are often shot, do not require the extra "flatness" the 378 offers.
Moreover, not many of us shoot much past 300 yards or so where the H&H is quite capable of doing and even if we could, it would be downright stupid and dangerous to attempt to take any of he aforementioned animals ( except eland) at ranges exceeding 100 yards. Ballistics test conducted on similar bullets and varying only muzzle velocity, penetration actually DECREASED at MVs exceeding 2400 fps. Finally, the 378 case is BIG and Weatehrby rifles only hold two rounds in the magazine, unless of course you have one custom made. jorge
Posts: 7149 | Location: Orange Park, Florida. USA | Registered: 22 March 2001
Now I�m over here thinking which cartridge would I rather have for Cape Buffalo and Lion. As you know I have not made my first trip to Africa yet. The bullet energy sold me on the cartridge. I still have a hard time believing that bullets with the same amount of mass will have the slower bullet penetrating farther. But I�m sure that the 378 cartridge with have an entrance opening and a exit opening on a lion and Cape Buffalo. I always appreciate your thoughts and comments Jorge.
Posts: 297 | Location: california | Registered: 20 January 2004
you could always step up bullet weight if you think that muzzle velcity is to high, also i have never heard of solids being pushed to fast and causing less penatration
There's nothing wrong with the 378 folks, I just pointed out the differences between the two in terms of practicality. As to the penetration tests, they are published, I'm just quoting from memory and maybe it involved bigger calibers. Regarding energy, in my limited experience animals larger than deer really don't pay much attention to them. The 378 is one hell of a cartridge so are Weatherby rifles for that matter. It's a matter of preference, nothing more. jorge
Posts: 7149 | Location: Orange Park, Florida. USA | Registered: 22 March 2001
Now I�m over here thinking which cartridge would I rather have for Cape Buffalo and Lion. As you know I have not made my first trip to Africa yet. The bullet energy sold me on the cartridge. I still have a hard time believing that bullets with the same amount of mass will have the slower bullet penetrating farther. But I�m sure that the 378 cartridge with have an entrance opening and a exit opening on a lion and Cape Buffalo.
One source of penetration data versus velocity that documents drops in penetration over the 2,400 fps MV throshhold is Mike LaGrange's Ballistics in Perspective. Dangerous game is frequently shot at about 40 yards, and the .378 is too much of a good thing at ranges like that.
jim dodd
Posts: 4166 | Location: San Diego, CA USA | Registered: 14 November 2001
An overwhelming amount of people take their 375 H&H's to Africa, whereas the 378 doesn't seem to have quite the appeal as that of the 375 H&H. Why do you think that is?
I think recoil is one BIG factor. And also availability.
Like you state, the 378 is "better" when it comes to energy and trajectory/velocity.
However, Craig Boddington, a big hero of mine, states that:
"Friends of mine swear by the .378 - while others curse it. I have never used it, so I can't draw a conclusion, but I will make two observations. First, when you get to 2,900 fps with a 300-grain bullet, you're starting to pay a vicious price in recoil.
Second, there is only so much velocity that any bullet will stand - and all .375 bullets were designed to perform at .375 H&H velocities, not 350 fps faster."
I think that rests this case.
Posts: 209 | Location: Sweden | Registered: 30 October 2003
When it comes to hunting, apart from the flatter trajectory, the 378 Weatherby does not have any advantage over the 375 H&H.
One very rarely shoots cape buffalo at ranges past 200 yards, and at that range good bullets from both rifles will kill the buffalo if hit in the right place.
I have used a rifle that fired the 300 grain Barnes X bullet at 3140 fps, and have not noticed that it killed any animal better than a 375 would have done.
For shooting some of the other animals at the longer ranges - past 300 yards, then something like the 378 Weatherby certainly makes it easier to hit with.
Of course, I am assuming whoever is shooting is used to the recoil of it, and can handle it.
What is your statistical background and judgement based on your use of the 378?
Second, I believe that the 378 will in ALL situations, be a better choice than the 375. Being, of course, the the hunter/shooter can handle the recoil well!!! (few of us will!)
Posts: 209 | Location: Sweden | Registered: 30 October 2003
Quote: Second, I believe that the 378 will in ALL situations, be a better choice than the 375. Being, of course, the the hunter/shooter can handle the recoil well!!!
That statement might be true for long shots. But there are few if any long shots on dangerous game.
Further, the very fast velocity of the .378 will cause soft points to tend to break up at close ranges, while the same bullets will hold together in a .375. So you will actually often get less penetration with a .378 than with a .375 using softs. The exception of this seems to be the Barnes X, and that bullet if pushed too fast will shed its petals, so you will end up with a .375" hole instead of the large would channel you would expect from an expanding bullet.
Also, most .378's are made by Weatherby, which in itself will be seen to be a big disadvantage by many hunters.
Posts: 18352 | Location: Salt Lake City, Utah USA | Registered: 20 April 2002
I have a pair of 378 Deluxes from the Wby custom shop that have arrived in Australia and now await some paper work licencing issues we have in Australia.
The biggest game these are likely to see is a camel or scrub cattle.
I got them after much consideration as I had cleaned out the gun safe and wanted to start again and if they are OK then I will follow them with a pair of 30/378s and a smaller Wby, probably 270. I have also ordered a 550 barrel, dies and sights from RNS to go on a Mark V action.
I have owned two 378s in the past and the pre US Made ones simply have a barrel that is way to light whereas now they have the same contour as the 416.
I saw for me two basic advantages over the 375 H&H and also the 375 RUM. One was that to have the 375 H&H in the sort of rifles I would want in rifles that were for the final home straight run the 378/Mark V combination was an easier and simpler thing and in addition the 378/Mark V kind of sits out on its own. That is, there is no customises CZ Vs M70 ot this or that. The 378 alos offers far greater loading flexibility and I would expect that this pair of 378s will spend 99% of their time at the equal of top end 375 H&H ballistics, which they will do with about any powder and do it easy. The 378 also allows the pair of 30/378s as companions whereas that needs 300 H&Hs for the 375 and the whole process gets more complicated.
But overall I think the 378 is probably a "shooters" calibre rather than a "hunters" calibre. As a side note I found dealing with the Wby custom shop to be 100% with their communication and delivery of the rifles.
Mike
Posts: 7206 | Location: Sydney, Australia | Registered: 22 May 2002
Quote: I have a pair of 378 Deluxes from the Wby custom shop that have arrived in Australia and now await some paper work licencing issues we have in Australia.
I got them after much consideration as I had cleaned out the gun safe and wanted to start again and if they are OK then I will follow them with a pair of 30/378s and a smaller Wby, probably 270. I have also ordered a 550 barrel, dies and sights from RNS to go on a Mark V action.
Mike
Mike, you have been upside down so long that the brains must have fallen out of your head. But Mr. Weatherby needs someone to help pay for his yacht.
Posts: 18352 | Location: Salt Lake City, Utah USA | Registered: 20 April 2002
I don't know if the Weatherby kills any better than the H&H. I do know that it kicks far more than the H&H. In fact the only one I ever shot seemed likely to cause me some sort of injury should I crack off a quick shot from some awkward position. I wouldn't even consider shooting full house loads from a prone position, and I can, when needed to do this pretty effectively, although painfully, with a 375 H&H.
Posts: 3174 | Location: Warren, PA | Registered: 08 August 2002
I would assume that if I want to sell my 378s there is no need to approach you
One of the things I find interesting is that the 416 Rigby is continually promoted over the 416 Remington on the basis that it can do the 2400 with 400 grainers at much lower pressure and offer in general more loading flexibility than the 416 Remington. Yet no one seems to apply this same thinking to the 378 or 375 RUM as compared to the 375 H&H.
Mike
Posts: 7206 | Location: Sydney, Australia | Registered: 22 May 2002
I have brought up the point of lower pressures in the RUM on several occasions; but, as you are well aware, some of the people here have so much actual experience that there is no experience for the rest of us to gain except through their word. I, for one hope you and others enjoy your .378s as much as I have enjoyed my RUM. Actually, there are people in this world that can handle the recoil. Oh, and, to the gentleman who posted on the .375 Weatherby; it is an absoulutely great round as evidenced through the experience of Hal Waugh, the great Alaskan guide. Shoot what you like; enjoy!!!!!!!!!!!
There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that Saeed knows what he's talking about.
I was merely curious about experiences with the 378 in the field.
I have been longing for a 378/416/460 Weatherby for quite some time now. Have found a few used Mark V's but none to my liking (weird stock ornamentation, one made in Germany, and so on).
Perhaps one day...
Posts: 209 | Location: Sweden | Registered: 30 October 2003
Name me one person who has the field experience of our gracious host Saeed.................there's no question about that.............the loads for his .404/.375 word wonderfully in a .375RUM.
I suppose no one talks about the advantages of a 378 Weatherby's big case at lower pressure because no one ever downloads the 378 Weatherby. It's claim to fame has always been pushing bullets faster than the 375 H&H for a flatter trajectory - which isn't true if you download it so no one does. As far as a dangerous game round the 375 has always been the minimum caliber considered - desired for it's low recoil for hunters who don't shoot the bigger caliber guns. The 378's recoil leaves it out of this niche, if you can handle a 378 Weatherby's recoil you can handle a 416 Rigby's recoil with it's 400 grain bullet that is just better for big animals at close ranges. The 378 Weatherby ends up being neither fish nor fowl as a dangerous game hunting cartridge so exists in a very small niche of it's own for people who dream of making 500 yard shots while hunting.
Posts: 421 | Location: Broomfield, CO, USA | Registered: 04 April 2002
<<<The 378 Weatherby ends up being neither fish nor fowl as a dangerous game hunting cartridge so exists in a very small niche of it's own for people who dream of making 500 yard shots while hunting.>>>
CMcDermott .. my 378 does fill a niche "for me". For Zim i will be using a 300 scoped weatherby for leapord..460 open sights for cape buffalo and in Zambia a scoped 378 for Lion. Even though I have been told that a 300 weatherby is fine for lion I chose to have something with a little bit more punch.There are only so many rifles a person can buy and bring for a safari.
Posts: 297 | Location: california | Registered: 20 January 2004
Mike" pls post pictures of your custom rifles when you get them. AKA, the fact that you'll be hunting all sorts of DGR, buff, lion and leopard, you are in great shape with those two calibers. If you are going to your leopard blind with your 378 and a buff shows up, he's toast. You'll find that Weatherbys have a a black and white reputation in the shooting world, people either hate love them or hate them. I can appreciate if folks just don't like their looks ( I love them) but when you look at the great hunters of the world like Elgin Gates, Herb Klien, Prince Pahlavi of Iran and many, many others, they all had one thing in common: They shot Weatherbys. You're in good company.
Oh yeah and one more thing; JOHN WAYNE LOVED Weatherbys. Now those of you that are itching to say something derogatory just watch it Bub, to disparage the Duke, well, them's fightin' words! jorge
Posts: 7149 | Location: Orange Park, Florida. USA | Registered: 22 March 2001
I will do that. What I did through Kevin Nunes at Weatherby is for both 378s to have the all steel bottom metal, matching stocks which are blonde and about the standard of a Deluxe from a several years ago as well as the "once over" before shipping.
The service I got from both Wby and their agents in Australia....Nioa Trading...could not be faulted...although there is a fair price hike. From what I understand the price hike occurs because Wby no longer offers the same pricing structure to the dealer/importer.
As a side note, a 30/378 made the same way is about $700 more than the 378. This occurs because the 30/378 does not have a barrel recoil lug as standard since they are in Accumarks and Synthetics but they need one for wood. If my 378s are OK, which I fully expect them to be, then I will get one 30/378 in wood and upgraded Accumark in 30/378.
But if you want to do some different stuff with Wby, I found Kevin Nunes very helpful and very personal.
Mike
Posts: 7206 | Location: Sydney, Australia | Registered: 22 May 2002
I can not believe you guys had this "conversation" without me!
I love the 378 WBY. It is my favorite caliber...period. I have had 2 or 3 during the years and have experimented with just about any powder I can get my hands on.
That said I agree with Saeed. The extra velocity works wonders for long range shooting but I doubt a Cape buffalo at 100 yds might tell the difference between the 378/375. Now where she reallllllllly shines is long range elk hunting. It is phenomenal! No gun can keep up (short of a 50 cal)! This is why you guys catch me bitching about the relatively low BC's on the premium bullets that manufacturers have a tendency to manufacture for the 375 Cal.
Posts: 3865 | Location: Cheyenne, WYOMING, USA | Registered: 13 June 2000
The 378 has never been very popular. The big bore boys don't like it because the bore's too small, and the medium bore boys don't like it because its too ferocious. Actually its probably the best of all the "378 case" rounds (it was the first) in terms of power and trajectory. Much better now (compared to when it first came out) due to the many premium bullets you can now get for it.
Posts: 57 | Location: Hudson Valley, NY | Registered: 06 August 2002
You're right, in that there is a much wider selection of premium bullets available than even 10 years ago- given the higher velocity potential of the 378 (or 375 rums for that matter), these bullets are very welcome.
I like the ballistics of the .378 WBY., and you're right, it is superior in that regard to the .375 H&H. The trouble is, for me at least the .378 is a sure'nough bitch to shoot, and the truth is, I just CAN'T shoot it to my satisfaction, even though I've tried.
Close only counts in horseshoes and handgrenades, so to me a well-placed shot that hits where I want it to hit from a .375 H&H is better than a possible subconscious miss with the same bullet from a .378 WBY..........
I feel better now that Allen admitted he can't shoot a 378 very well. Now if somewhat will admit that a 458 Lott is too much I won't feel like the biggest sissy on the forum.
Posts: 3174 | Location: Warren, PA | Registered: 08 August 2002
A 458 Lott is a piece of cake IF YOUR RIFLE IS CONSTRUCTED CORRECTLY. I have one that kicks like a 30-06. It weighs 10 lbs including scope and 2 mercury tubes. It has a wide butt and a pachmyr shotgun recoil pad.
But if you rechamber a Ruger no 1, it will be a nightmare.
Posts: 18352 | Location: Salt Lake City, Utah USA | Registered: 20 April 2002
Quote: I feel better now that Allen admitted he can't shoot a 378 very well. Now if somewhat will admit that a 458 Lott is too much I won't feel like the biggest sissy on the forum.
Better an honest sissy than a delusional ass clown
Umm, my latest 458 Lott doesn't seem to be nearly as "enjoyable" to shoot as the previous one. Perhaps it's that I've been to the range less than a handful of times in the past year. That and I think I just may have to make a proper stock for it and ditch the tupperware it currently sits in. Interestingly, my 500 Jeffrey shooting 600's @ 2200 fps wasn't that bad last time I shot it, but I haven't shot the guns side by side.
Posts: 7213 | Location: Alaska | Registered: 27 February 2001
500grains The one and only Lott I've ever fired was indeed one of the dreaded Ruger No 1s. I don't really need (or want)such a big gun anyway so I'm probably going to pass on trying to get one that fits me, at least for the time being.
Posts: 3174 | Location: Warren, PA | Registered: 08 August 2002
