There is a lot of difference in killing power between a 45-70, 45-90 and a 458 Win....all going to the 458...The difference is quite obvious..

I have used or seen used the 45-90 and 458 on large animals such as Nilgai, Bison, and Eland, never on a moose.

The 458 with its great Sectional density will penetrate a heck of a lot more than either of the other two, and with its heavier bullets and more velocity it is just a more powerfull caliber anyway you cut it...Not even in the same class...Perhaps a 45-70 in a Ruger single shot loaded to the gills would be competitive, I don't know...Seems like trying to make a silk purse out of sows ear to me....

Most of hype you hear about the 45-70 is by folks who have not used it extensively, nor observed its use much, it never impressed me and I used it a lot some years back. You get a few good impressive kills with it, but you cannot depend on it IMO..The only way it would kill anything to suit me was with a hard cast bullet as far as I could tell, and that was slow in doing so but it left a decent blood trail. You shoot enough game with it and sooner or later you will abandon that caliber.

The 45-70 and 45-90 are decent deer calibers, especially with the 350 gr. Hornaday RN......

I do believe that Ray is making reference to typical loadings for the 45/70 -- 350 and 400 grain bullets. Compare a 350 grain .45 cal. bullet to a 500 grain .45 cal bullet and there's a sizeable difference in sectional density. If you loaded a 45/70 with a 550 grain bullet there wouldn't be any room left for powder, I believe. I think that's where Ray was going with this.

Whitworth

NEVER took a moose with a 45/70 but have taken about 20 deer from just about every angle and they all have one thing in common, they make it about one step... if that.

The .458 and the 45/70 both use the same bullet diameter so it just depends how fast you can push it whether or not it reaches .458 velocity.

Moose ARE funny critters. If they are caught unawares, and you hit them well, they can go onto their backs faster then a Southern Prom queen. IF they get their blood up they can soak up footpounds like a sponge and you wonder if they are even being hit. My last moose knew I was there as it was coming out of the water so it was getting a load of steam up. as it broke from the water I hit it with my .300Winmag and it dropped, came right back up, round 2, it dropped, came right back up and round 3 put it down for good. All were good "killing shots" but it didn't seem to matter. Two years before that I was using the same bullet and load, had one standing broadside with a mouth full of grass and I hit it and it had disappeared dropping dead before the rifle came out of recoil. That one round was the same place the other 3 were 2 years later.

After that last adventure I swithced over to the .375H&H for moose. Bigger heavier bullets to break things.

Brent
PC meant loading 577 BPE 650 grain bullets OVER nitro powder...
jeffe

Just this weekend past I saw, withing hours, the huge difference in effect (yes effect) between the 458 watts with 510 gr sp vs the 458 winmag with 405 gr rems...

the 458 killed pigs, just dead.

the watts "shattered" them, instant kills...

Of course, a pig doesn't offer alot of resistence to a .458 bullet.

To put this another way...

the "line" is
sd of .300+
bullet weight of 300+
MV of 2000+

and you can take on anything in the world. More is better... to a point

jeffe

Jeff -- how fast is the Watts moving? 2400-2500 fps?

Brent, are those loads compressed?

ACTUALLY I have loaded some 550HC in the 45/70 just to see what they are like. Interesteing recoil for that light little Marlin GG carbine.
Don't have access to my reloading log right now but velocity was only into the 1500-1600fps catagory IIRC.
shot one deer with it on a broadside shot from about 50yds and it went down like it had been dynamited. Took out both shoulders on it's way through, then punched about a 6" deep hole through a soft maple tree on the other side before exiting to points South. I wouldn't hunt a moose with that load, but it does seem to have good penetration even at that speed.

It's like the "cannonball effect". Once the bullet weight gets up there high enough, any suitable velocity gives it legs beyond belief.
There was a recorded incident during the civil war, where a 6 pounder cannon ball was rolling through the Union lines. the report was that it was traveling at about fast walking speed as it was rolling along. A Union Lt. put his foot out in front of it to stop it and prompty had his foot ripped off with no noticable slowing of the cannon ball. Once they get BIG in weight, speed doesn't seem as critical as it is for LITTLE projectiles.

I have not used the 45-70 or the 458 Win mag for moose. I have used a 458 Winnie for white tail and a friend uses a 45-70. We have hunted together a few times, and I honestly cannot see a difference between the two on WHITE TAIL. He was using factory 405 gr loads too, I was using a 405 at 2230 fps, which represents the same bullet but driven ~ 900 fps. Like I said they both killed white tail DEAD REAL QUICK LIKE.



I have to agree with LAWCOP about moose too. They are much like bears, if they get aware/excited they are VERY tough. Caught unawares and they seem to actually suffer from shock, and die quickly. The best moose story I have is one in which a good friend using a 338 Win mag and 250 gr Fail safes punched 5 holes in an excited bull moose up in Canada. The first four round took out the lungs, all missing the heart, and number five took out the carotid artery (it was neck/throat shot). It was number five which ultimately seemed to slow/stop the old boy.



From my limited experience with moose; however, I would rate them below elk in toughness even though the darned things are huge.



Back to the original post, I would have to say that with a broadside chest shot, and a 40,000 CUP loaded 45-70 versus a 458 Win mag, one would most likely notice NO discernible difference in the reaction of a moose. Provided that the both rifles are shooting similar bullet designs and weights.



Now if I were shopping for a rifle in one of the chamberings, it would hands down be a 458 Win Mag!



ASS_CLOWN

Brent -- did not know that guys were loading 45/70s with that heavy a bullet. What kind of velocity can you get out of such a load?

You are correct with your observation about worthless debate...

Whitworth