Just trying to see if anybody else shooting a 405 has had any problems with the 300 gr. Barnes TSX. I have been agonizing over a bullet failure I had during elk season this past October. I was lucky enough to harvest a nice 6 x 6 bull this year with the 405 ruger #1. Load was 55.0 grains R15 with the Barnes bullet. Accuracy is exceptional with this load, under 2" at 200. I shot the bull at 186 yards (rangefinder), I hit a couple inches low, the bull didn't go down as fast as expected. Once we got to the bull I was surprised not to see an exit hole. Upon skinning we found the entrance hole, the bullet hit a rib dead on. The liver was jelled. On the off side there were several small holes exiting the hide, nothing bigger than an 1/8". No bullet was found in the elk and no exit hole. Only thing I can think is I had a bullet failure. Really surprised with the barnes. I am planning a hunt to Africa now I am concerned with the Barnes TSX, will they work or will I get another bullet failure. Any thoughts?

I'm thinking that most of the bullet ended up in the guts somewhere. If indeed the bullet disintegrated one would think that 300 gr of copper would retain quite a few pieces larger than what would cut a 1/8 inch hole. Not exactly a bullet failure.

I think that bullet is meant to expand only at 1600 fps or faster.
.411-cal/300-grTSX:



Just looking at Barnes manual for 24" barrel, 405 WCF, 55.5 grains of RL-15 is listed at 2136 fps, max load. Your load was 55.0 grains of RL-15.
BC is .280 and SD is .254 so your bullet was only doing about 2100 fps at the muzzle and down to only about 1500 fps when it struck the elk on a rib at 186 yards.

I think the bullet did not expand, maybe flattened the nose on one side, or just continued acting like a spitzer, and veered off course, tumbled through the liver and on into the gut pile in the abdomen, and you did not find it, not easy sometimes.
Maybe rib bone fragments did some damage, and maybe a few splinters exited the offside hide?

Sounds like the bullet performed amazingly well on a big animal in the beyond, considering bullet parameters.

I have loaded that bullet in the 400 Whelen to over 2400 fps. It would still be doing over 1800 fps at 200 yards.
1600 fps is about the minimum impact velocity for most monometal copper bullets (hollow point) to expand reliably.
They will expand better with a higher SD: SD drives expansion as well as penetration and BC.
Of course if it expands too much, it will penetrate less.
If it veers and tumbles, from not expanding, it will not penetrate in a straight line, until it flips over and proceeds bassackward-onward.
The 405 WCF 300-grain TSX is handicapped by relatively low SD of .254, and low BC of .280.

Even a .510/570-grain Barnes XLC (or TSX) at 2300 fps impact will not penetrate and exit a broadside chest shot on a mature bison bull,
just bulges the hide on the off side, from 50 yards or 25 yards with MV close to 2400 fps.
But a .510/570-grain GSC FN solid will exit on a Texas Heart Shot from tail to tonsils, 8 feet of bison, whether 25 yards or 75 yards, with same MV.
I have photographic proof of two shots with each bullet at those ranges on the same bison. One shot with each bullet on the live animal. and one shot with each bullet post mortem.

GSC makes a nice HV .411-caliber/317-grainer:



Your current load should be limited to less than 150 yards for reliable epansion.

Or you could load your rifle like a 450/400 NE 3" with 400-grain Woodleigh RNSP and get closer.

North Fork .411-cal/300-grainer:







It is tough to make a 405 WCF into a reliable 186-yard elk rifle. Even the North Fork .411/300-grainer is iffy at 1600 fps.

Maybe a custom run (not aware of any off-the-shelf) Cutting Edge brass hollow point "Non-con" with a plastic ballistic tip would do it ... brass hexploders ... ?



In fact, the GSC HV .411/317-grainer was a custom run. Already designed and programmed by GSC-USA.
That might do it as well as anything.




Higher BC, a little more weight, and better low-velocity expansion probably than the stubby TSX.



You could easily make it go faster than 2100 fps MV in the 405 WCF Ruger No. 1.
Load long and load hot in the Ruger No.1.
It does well over 2400 fps in the 400 Whelen.
Seeing how fast it would go in a Ruger No.1 405 WCF would be an interesting experiment.
I have one of those.
First I would see how long the throat allows it to be loaded, and check on the twist rate of the barrel.
1:14" is great in the 400 Whelen with this GSC HV bullet, same twist in the Ruger 405 WCF IIRC ...


Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
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I do believe your using the right powder in Reloader 15. Just not quite enough of it. You are using Ruger No. 1 not a winchester 95. I shoot two No.1 Rugers at a bit more R15 than you use with the Barnes TSX. Like they say finding a bullet is not the easiest thing to do. The only one I Ever found was shooting in to test medium. Either way it looks like you did OK.

My opinion may be a bit different but I do believe you can make the 405 a reliable Elk rifle at 186 yards, but probably adding velocity and betting on expansion, Barnes or otherwise, isn't the way I would choose. No doubt the Barnes ended up in the gut pouch somewhere. The bottom end would not come apart. The wings do come off some times and exit with the look that you mention, but that core turned and went somewhere. I prefer performance at the muzzle the same at 250 yards on the big rifles for this kind of game and that means big RN or FN cast or jacketed solid. If hit where you want to hit, you will put holes all the way through the vitals and will have an exit lined up with the entrance. Works every time and has forever. Since I know your a cast man, you will understand my position.

Im sure the front end petals blew off your bullet and made those small exit holes, the base of the bullet was probably somewhere in there, sometimes they are hard to find, and may have been in the guts or ruman, Who knows, they are easily lost.

Sounds like the bullet did its job and killed the elk pretty quick, elk seldom die on the spot, most will run from 20 to 100 yards. Only a few are dead at the shot.

I, personally, would not trust cast bullets or solids on big animals like elK, I have seen them work well and I have chased elk all over the Salmon shot with cast big bullets, when they work the work awesome, they can fail the same way..Still, I have friends that swear by them!!

I would trust a big round nose soft point with lots of lead exposed. That's what the old timers used in the 405, 45-70, 45-90 in my early days. My cousin shot a few elk with the 45-90 Win. 1886 Rifle and the big 350 gr. RN Hornady bullet. I witnessed him shoot a cow with it..It killed her real well, he broke her shoulder and made a heart shot. it shattered her shoulder and tore up the heart and lungs and exited the flank, she took two or three steps and folded. Might give it a try. I liked that 45-90 on deer with cast bullets or soft points, it just killed them.

A slow moving TSX (1500 fps) with low SD (.254) is not going to blow its petals off at impact.
Velocity AND sectional density are what drives expansion in any given medium, elk or whatever.
That bullet was low on both velocity and SD at 186-yard impact.
It did not open, and simply went squirrely like any FMJ spitzer can do.
It will be more likely to not even start to open up than to blow its nose off and send petals exiting the offside.

Brass hollowpoints might shear their petals into "death stars" at such slow speed but not copper monometals with a nose profile and low SD like the TSX "culprit" here.

Yep, the 55-grain load of RL-15 with 300-grain TSX is about a 40,000 psi load, meant to be safe in the lever action Winchester 1895.

You might be able to add 200 FPS and get 2300 fps at the muzzle with that bullet, by bumping pressures up to 55,000 psi.
I would feel comfortable with that in a Ruger No. 1 and using the good Hornady brass.
An extra 200 fps of MV ought to make the stubby .411/300-grain TSX open on impact with an elk out to 200 yards, no more.

But 55 grains of RL-15 is about a 105% load, compressed, with your current load.
You might need a new powder, or longer throat and longer COL if you want to use the same bullet.

The bullet is what it is, it cannot be said to have failed.
It was only delivered on target at too slow an impact velocity for proper terminal ballistics.
Load hotter or get closer, or think about another bullet ...

http://www.woodleighbullets.co...raditional/405q-458q

Summary:
Woodleigh recommends impact velocities of 1800 to 2200 fps for all of their .411-caliber soft-nosed bullets, from 300 to 400 grains.
Even a Woodleigh RNSP Weldcore famous for pancake-like expansion won't expand properly if moving too slowly on impact.
It will behave like a roundnose solid and we know those are prone to veering sideways (just like a spitzer solid) into the gut on a chest shot.


http://www.gsgroup.co.za/faqexpansion.html

GS Custom HV Bullets
Quotation:
"Expanding monometallic bullets have been found to be unreliable up to now. In many cases, hollow point monometallic bullets would act like solids on soft game with bad results. To eliminate this problem entirely, HV bullets are designed to expand reliably from as low as 1600 fps. We have driven HV bullets as high as 4700 fps and weight retention remains at a high 80%. This makes GS Custom HV bullets the most versatile premium expanding bullet on the market today."

"The mechanism is that an HV bullet will start expanding soon after submerging in tissue. As the HV bullet penetrates, it expands, forming the wound channel for maximum damage. Where the impact speed is below 2500fps, an HV bullet is likely to retain the petals as maximum weight and momentum is required. If impact speed exceeds 2600fps, there is enough energy and momentum available and it is likely that the petals will tear off, leaving a flat fronted cylinder shape. This ensures good wound formation as the bullet expands and maximum penetration with the cylinder shaped shaft. It is not uncommon for the petals that are torn from the nose of the bullet to penetrate as deep as the shaft."

GS Custom HP Bullets
Quotation:
"Our original HP Bullets were designed to give a good balance between expansion and weight retention. We always make a caliber recommendation for each bullet and this is based on the expansion criteria for the particular bullet and caliber from 100 metres to the maximum practical range at which that the bullet is likely to be used. Some HP bullets will start expanding from as low as 1500 fps. Others are designed to only start at 2200 or so. Follow our recommendations and, if you are unsure, contact us for further advice."


http://www.northforkbullets.co...ore/411-300-ss.html/

North Fork

.411-300 SS
Quotation:
"This bullet was originally designed for the 411 Hawk and Brown Whelen class of cartridge. It can be driven to nearly 2600 from a bolt gun and 2500 from a M95 Winchester 411 Hawk. It was designed to open at a lower velocity so that the Hawk cartridge would be usable out to 300 yds. This bullet is best used on deer, pigs, and animals on up to elk. ??? Up to but not including elk-sized game? ??? It has the proper operating range for the 405 Winchester cartridge but the longer ogive may prove problematic in the M95. I do know that the OAL of the 405 cartridge would be too long if the case is crimped in the front groove, but I know of no reason that it needs to be crimped there. If it could be seated further into the case and crimped with a Lee die, it should work."









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https://home.nra.org/

Bullets sometimes do strange things and do not always do what you want.
I shoot an 1895 .405 WCF, using hand loads from .210 to 400 grains and I have never had a bullet failure, only shooter failures.(me)
I had a factory Hornady 300 grain JFP shoot through a Nilgai shoulder blade but be stopped by the off shoulder blade and was disappointed, but had I put the bullet through the lungs, it would have done the job and I would have been delighted.
Since then, I have switched to NF and Woodleigh for big tough critters and they have always done the job on everything from Asian water buffalo to Cape buff. I hear the Barnes are also accurate and deadly, but have only shot hogs with them.
You got your fine elk with a 300 grain .405 Barnes and have many good meals in the future, so enjoy!
Supper tonight was grilled elk tenderloin medallions and was superb and that one was killed with a 165 grain .308 at 200 yards with a double lung shot. (sometimes I do it right)

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/p...h=40&products_id=161
Won't have to worry about how fast it is going when it hits a vital spot.

This is what I run in mine although I built it on a Lee Enfield Mk 1 action

Von Gruff,
Happy New Year!! The OP is interested in groups at 200 yards and killing medium game at same. Medium meaning Elk sized. Can you comment to either point for him?
Best regards,

I remember about 30 years or so ago, I had a similar conversation with one of the tech folks at Speer. When I expressed my displeasure at my recovered bullet not looking like the perfect mushroom in the reloading manual, he commented "so at exactly which point in the elk's death did the bullet fail?" Food for thought.
As an aside, I shoot 300 gr Barnes X triple shock bullets in my .405 Winchester as well as 400 gr Woodleigh solids - I would happily shoot both loads in Africa at buffalo.

I have to disagree RIP you can blow the petlas off a bullet at 1500 or less if you hit a big bone, knuckle, or spine, I have seen it many times,not assumption, Ive seen it more than a few times with Barnes X, and with a lot of soft nose cup and core bullets, even some partition type bullets...

That bullet did not fail.

It killed an elk dead.

It hit a rib and I am sure you found ground grains of bone fragment in the wound channel. That would also have added to the damage.

Jelly liver is as good at jelly heart or jelly lungs - lots of blood loss and quick kill. (I got jelly liver on a fallow deer with a hollow point 222 Rem 53 gr bullet - dead within 30 meters)

Did the copper petals sheer off and exit the animal?

The lesson from that experience is that your rifle 7 load / bullet combo is fine up to 200 yards

Fury, I agree with you and the cast bullets. I shot most of my animals in Alaska with cast bullets. This was the first time I tried the barnes bullets. I think I am going back with cast. The 405 shoots a 325 grain cast just as good. I never had a cast act like the barnes did.

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
Von Gruff,
Happy New Year!! The OP is interested in groups at 200 yards and killing medium game at same. Medium meaning Elk sized. Can you comment to either point for him?
Best regards,

New years blessing to you as well Fury.

With a possibility of getting the 320gn bullet to over 2200fps I would have no hesitation in using it to 200 yds on medium game (even if I haven't done so as yet. I have been playing with alloy and powders to date but expect to get a decent load sorted.